Pushing the Leica M10 to its limits

[Peters]

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Really depends on what you mean by severe conditions. Rangefinders can be knocked out of alignment while the lenses are not weather sealed. Having said that the Ms have been used in several wars so unless you're planning on taking this underwater I'm sure it would hold up. Just learn how to adjust the rangefinder focus yourself in case it takes a bump or two. 

The biggest issue I think would be service. Leica's 2-5 month turnaround time for fixes is simply not up to scratch for professionals who need a quick fix. At the very least Leica should provide pros with a stand in camera while their model is being fixed. 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Peters

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[Dennis]

6 hours ago, Peters said:

Rangefinders can be knocked out of alignment while the lenses are not weather sealed.

Yes I know, these are the weakest point. But I guess the only bad points regarding my questions.

6 hours ago, Peters said:

The biggest issue I think would be service. Leica's 2-5 month turnaround time for fixes is simply not up to scratch for professionals who need a quick fix.

Wow, that's a lot. Good to know.

[John Ricard]

On 5/31/2020 at 6:30 AM, Ecar said:

Would you take your M10 out to shoot for a couple of hours under pouring rain?

Everyone always talks about weather sealing, but I never see photos taken in the rain.  Never. Not on Instagram, not in magazines, not on Facebook, not in advertising...  Where are all these photos published that are taken after hours of shooting in the rain?

Also, I just did a quick Google Search for "Photographs taken in the rain", and I would say about 30% of the photos are taken INDOORS and use rain drops on the glass as a compositional element.

Edited June 4, 2020 by John Ricard

[adan]

You did see post #27?

[Ecar]

1 hour ago, John Ricard said:

Everyone always talks about weather sealing, but I never see photos taken in the rain.  Never. Not on Instagram, not in magazines, not on Facebook, not in advertising...  Where are all these photos published that are taken after hours of shooting in the rain?

Also, I just did a quick Google Search for "Photographs taken in the rain", and I would say about 30% of the photos are taken INDOORS and use rain drops on the glass as a compositional element.

Quite true! I wouldn't be able to answer your question myself, as I am mostly a Leica user (and definitely not as brave as Andy).

But I know a photographer working on outdoor sports events (mostly car racing) who relies on his weather-sealed Canon bodies and L lenses for his trade.

[andyturk]

On 5/31/2020 at 11:10 AM, adan said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

How did your LightPix Labs doohickey survive in the cold?

[adan]

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2 minutes ago, andyturk said:

How did your LightPix Labs doohickey survive in the cold?

Not using one - that is a Leica 21mm viewfinder in one hotshoe. Survived fine.

[andyturk]

5 minutes ago, adan said:

Not using one - that is a Leica 21mm viewfinder in one hotshoe. Survived fine.

Oh... As it should. LOL

[Delirious123]

On 6/4/2020 at 9:05 PM, John Ricard said:

Everyone always talks about weather sealing, but I never see photos taken in the rain.  Never. Not on Instagram, not in magazines, not on Facebook, not in advertising...  Where are all these photos published that are taken after hours of shooting in the rain?

Also, I just did a quick Google Search for "Photographs taken in the rain", and I would say about 30% of the photos are taken INDOORS and use rain drops on the glass as a compositional element.

I took my brand new Leica Q2 out in the pouring rain here in Hong Kong the other weekend. Now that camera is weather sealed and I was reasonably careful with it but my point is I was out shooting in the rain with it and enjoying it. You can check my instagram page out if you like and see some images. Lots of people on the streets of HK with umbrellas basically. So maybe I’m the exception.

Cheers,

Delirious.

[oka]

On 6/2/2020 at 11:53 AM, Peters said:

The biggest issue I think would be service. Leica's 2-5 month turnaround time for fixes is simply not up to scratch for professionals who need a quick fix. At the very least Leica should provide pros with a stand in camera while their model is being fixed. 

 

Well that is not true. Leica has priority for professionals and faster service turnarounds. Also they have (limited amount of) loan equipments too...

Of course it’s not same as what Canon and Nikon can provide with their CPS / NPS programs.

I’m bit puzzled why Leica has not announced publicly or create official program for pro’s. I personally read that from some post on this forum and asked directly from my service contact.

Personally what I have learned hard way when working professionally with Leica that you need to have bit more backup equipment than with Canon / Nikon. With Leica prices, the investment is initially much higher BUT on long run, you actually save bit money compared to Japanese peers as Leica keeps value much better (and with used equipment you usually don’t lose any value if you don’t abuse the equipment).

Also Leica is VERY generous on services, unlike any other brands. In one example my bag was stolen and when I got it back, I send it to Leica for checkup - multiple lenses and bodies - all for free.

Edited June 16, 2020 by oka

[Peters]

1 hour ago, oka said:

Well that is not true. Leica has priority for professionals and faster service turnarounds. Also they have (limited amount of) loan equipments too...

Of course it’s not same as what Canon and Nikon can provide with their CPS / NPS programs.

I’m bit puzzled why Leica has not announced publicly or create official program for pro’s. I personally read that from some post on this forum and asked directly from my service contact.

Personally what I have learned hard way when working professionally with Leica that you need to have bit more backup equipment than with Canon / Nikon. With Leica prices, the investment is initially much higher BUT on long run, you actually save bit money compared to Japanese peers as Leica keeps value much better (and with used equipment you usually don’t lose any value if you don’t abuse the equipment).

Also Leica is VERY generous on services, unlike any other brands. In one example my bag was stolen and when I got it back, I send it to Leica for checkup - multiple lenses and bodies - all for free.

Not from my experience, unfortunately. It's far, far, far beyond that of Canon or Nikon. I've been left hanging on multiple occasions - especially if its core issues that can only be fixed by Germany. When that happens its gone for 2-3 months, minimum. Some Leica stores do have loan units, but as you say that's very limited and there are even a few stores that will keep your broken camera as a guarantee - meaning they will only send off your camera to Germany once you return the loaner unit. Which kind of defeats the purpose for someone looking to get some work done. 

The M system certainly keeps its value, and the lenses / film bodies can certainly be considered an investment since they will last forever. The rest - not so much, especially when you get a couple of scratches, which is expected in the field. Just look on eBay - u can pick an SL for under 2k these days. I had to do this when it became clear my body was gonna be in repair for 8 weeks. 

But again, the point here is not so much as the entrance fee but rather the service itself. If Leica really want to cater to professionals they're gonna have to step up in regards to faster turnaround times. A free clean here and there won't cut it. 

[Archiver]

On 6/2/2020 at 1:44 AM, Dennis said:

Too much, maybe. But for sure, two M10 and three batteries for each camera, plus many 32gb cards ... And one mobile SSD to download the photos on the way. A few years ago, I was shooting with two DLSR bodies: one with a 35mm and an 85mm. Now I just use the D5 with a 35mm, and when needed, I just switch to a 58mm. I bring a D810 as a backup. In this way I can use only one camera all day long, I don't carry an extra body, so I can freely move, jump, and lay down on the floor. It's my NInja style.

I can't say, until I try M.

Exactly. Something like that. I would say 24+35+50... Cause I don't use any longer FL than 58. Maybe I could add a 75, who knows. And because I shoot a loot with my instinct, I would also use the 24 w/o EVF ... It must be pure OVF. But never tried a 24mm before on an M, we'll see. Thank you so much for your feedback 🙏

 

Dennis, your wedding work is superb. If I shot weddings regularly, I'd be thrilled to produce images like that. One wedding I shot was for a family friend, I shot just over 1000 images and delivered 110, and they liked them more than the pros who shot 4000 images with their Canon 5D Mark IIs. I used my M9 mainly with 50mm f2, 35mm f1.4 and 75mm f2.5. I found that for my personal comfort, shooting 50 and 75 was the way to go, but your use of 35 makes sense.

My concern with you switching to M10s for wedding work is how accurately (or not) you'll be able to manually focus. It's honestly a bit of a crapshoot in fast moving situations like the dance floor, and I find I'm better off with a live view / EVF for manual focus, or very reliable face detection. I shot some images at another wedding early this year, and the M9, while producing great quality images, wasn't fast enough for situations like dancing. By the time I'd focused in the centre, the subject would move while I was recomposing. I ended up using my Panasonic GH4 and Voigtlander primes with live view to focus, along with rapid burst mode while pulling focus to ensure I got something worthwhile. The image quality was not as good, but at least I got the shots I wanted.

This isn't what you are asking, but I follow a YouTube channel called Monochrome Memoirs. He's a wedding shooter who has moved from Nikon DSLR's to the Z6, and swears by them. Way lighter than the D5. And he's gone all in with native lenses for the Z6. A couple of Z6s might be useful to you, with a 35/1.8 and 50/1.8. He specifically says that Z6 face detection is good enough for low light wedding situations.

[budjames]

On 5/31/2020 at 10:35 AM, W124 said:

Two weeks ago I shot a wedding, 850 frames during the day, using the rangefinder and visoflex 020, 1 1/2 accus needed. We had sunshine and rain, without any problems.

How many batteries did you need for that shoot?

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[Dennis]

8 hours ago, Archiver said:

Dennis, your wedding work is superb. If I shot weddings regularly, I'd be thrilled to produce images like that. One wedding I shot was for a family friend, I shot just over 1000 images and delivered 110, and they liked them more than the pros who shot 4000 images with their Canon 5D Mark IIs. I used my M9 mainly with 50mm f2, 35mm f1.4 and 75mm f2.5. I found that for my personal comfort, shooting 50 and 75 was the way to go, but your use of 35 makes sense.

My concern with you switching to M10s for wedding work is how accurately (or not) you'll be able to manually focus. It's honestly a bit of a crapshoot in fast moving situations like the dance floor, and I find I'm better off with a live view / EVF for manual focus, or very reliable face detection. I shot some images at another wedding early this year, and the M9, while producing great quality images, wasn't fast enough for situations like dancing. By the time I'd focused in the centre, the subject would move while I was recomposing. I ended up using my Panasonic GH4 and Voigtlander primes with live view to focus, along with rapid burst mode while pulling focus to ensure I got something worthwhile. The image quality was not as good, but at least I got the shots I wanted.

This isn't what you are asking, but I follow a YouTube channel called Monochrome Memoirs. He's a wedding shooter who has moved from Nikon DSLR's to the Z6, and swears by them. Way lighter than the D5. And he's gone all in with native lenses for the Z6. A couple of Z6s might be useful to you, with a 35/1.8 and 50/1.8. He specifically says that Z6 face detection is good enough for low light wedding situations.

Thank you for the feedback 🙏 And congrats for your family friend's wedding delivery 🙌 I can understand your doubt about the focus concern using Leica for weddings. My Nikon D5 is SO fast to focus, so there would make a huge difference, and I would have to change a little my workflow. My style and honest-visual approach would remain the same, but the modus operandi not. Especially for the single card slot, that is my biggest concern.
I need to master the focus with the M system and the focus of the zone to ensure I can catch the same moments. I know it's a big challenge, but the benefits are many: less gear, much less weight, much less size, more discrete, more silent. My back would feel the relief. 😂

I tried the Z6, but I don't like it. It's a great camera, but not for me. My big statement is to look through an OVF, I don't want any EVF. I'm DSLR or RF, not mirrorless. I also thought for a while about the Leica SL2, but despite the fantastic features and performance, the lenses are enormous. I really like it when the camera is larger than the glass, not the reverse.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Dennis

[W124]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb budjames:

How many batteries did you need for that shoot?

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

Hi, I used 1 1/2 batteries for the shooting, didn't switch off the camera and live view was on.

[budjames]

16 hours ago, W124 said:

Hi, I used 1 1/2 batteries for the shooting, didn't switch off the camera and live view was on.

Wow! That's impressive. Thanks.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.