Pushing the Leica M10 to its limits

[Dennis]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 minute ago, petermullett said:

Leica have the mechanics of their camera down almost to perfection, it's those pesky electrons that seem to give the most trouble, at least in all the warranty work and repairs mine have been through.

Which problems you had with your digital M cameras? 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Gobert]

4 minutes ago, petermullett said:

Sure, if it's a paying job or a shoot that's important to me and the shooting style favours me using the M system I would always take a second M body along. It's the electronics more than the mechanicals that seem to be the main problems with the digital M's. Leica have the mechanics of their cameras down almost to perfection, it's those pesky electrons that seem to give the most trouble, at least in all the warranty work and repairs mine have been through.

For any paid job you need a 2nd body as backup.

[Dennis]

2 minutes ago, Gobert said:

Photo’s in the link are fine. But what’s your hit rate. How many of those 5.000 do you actually deliver to your customer?

There is not a definitive number. Let's say that with about 4000 average shots I take, I delivery about 15%. There are situations which worth the time and many shots. But I ended choose only the best of the serie. Does it make sense for you?

[Dennis]

7 minutes ago, Gobert said:

For any paid job you need a 2nd body as backup.

That's right. I always bring two bodies, just in case. But I only use one body all day long, with prime lenses.

[Guest BlackBarn]

12 minutes ago, Dennis said:

If you are curious and want to understand more, look here 

I can’t answer your question,  however interested  in the post.

Really natural and beautiful work Dennis. Lovely to see wedding photos like these!

Mind you,  I’m with Gobert on this one. Taking a photo - in single mode - every 8 seconds for 10 hours non stop. Then having to load them somewhere and edit and select. How many do you reduce the 5000 down to? How many are keepers?

if you get these results why change anything? What is the ‘M’ system going to bring to you or your Clients which they aren’t getting already? How will your eye change and respond? 

Aren't those questions more relevant than  ‘robustness’? 

 

[tom.w.bn]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb Gobert:

5000 frames on a wedding...... Good lord, what happened with the times that photography was a profession?

When I was professionally engaged in wedding photography, in the analog times, I returned home with maximum 10% of that number.

In the good ole days you needed two staged photos: one of the couple and one of the couple with parents. Thankfully these days are over.

When I read something about wedding photography then 3000+ images for a full day seems to be pretty normal.

[Gobert]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

14 minutes ago, Dennis said:

There is not a definitive number. Let's say that with about 4000 average shots I take, I delivery about 15%. There are situations which worth the time and many shots. But I ended choose only the best of the serie. Does it make sense for you?

As said, I did your job in the analog times. That’s a different way of counting as you have to reload the camera after 36 frames and you are not allowed to miss something important. In those days I had two, sometimes three bodies. But I delivered a much higher percentage.

On an average day I came home with around 500 (+ or - 100) frames. 
 

But that is why I love the M system. It gives some kind of analog feeling. For action photography I Would however prefer to use a pro DSLR.

Edited May 31, 2020 by Gobert

[Dennis]

3 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

Really natural and beautiful work Dennis. Lovely to see wedding photos like these!

Thank you 🙏

5 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

if you get these results why change anything? What is the ‘M’ system going to bring to you or your Clients which they aren’t getting already? How will your eye change and respond? 

Good point. Let me resume it to you in this way. My D5 does perfectly the job, so why change it? First, because I really enjoy more to shoot with a Leica M rather than a DSRL. Yes I get paid, but it's not about the money, It's about passion and full enjoy the process. And for that I'm willing to sacrifice the "robustness" for a better experience.

Another reason is because a D5 + 35mm 1.8G it's about 1.7kg, while an M10 + 35 Cron it's only 915gr ... I always always carry the camera when I'm working all day long, shooting a lot all the time, moving like a ninja. And after many years like a monkey, my back is suffering.

11 minutes ago, tom.w.bn said:

In the good ole days you needed two staged photos: one of the couple and one of the couple with parents. Thankfully these days are over.

When I read something about wedding photography then 3000+ images for a full day seems to be pretty normal.

Thanks god! 😂

11 minutes ago, Gobert said:

As said, I did your job in the analog times.

I don't know you wedding work, so I can't say anything about. But there are situations for me, where I invest time and effort to get my "perfect" shot. I shoot several photos of the same scene, because I'm not satisfied with a mediocre or regular image, I always fight to get my photo better and better. I'm a perfectionist. Sometimes you just need to take one photo and that's it. The moment is gone, no need of more photos to take. But sometimes the scene doesn't change a lot, and I shoot and keep shooting. If worth my time, I stay with the same frame and shoot when I have a better photo, and so on. So at the end (just a stupid example) I can have 10 photos at 50%, 5 photos at 75%, 3 photos at 90%, 1 photos at 93%. of the same scene.

What do I do? Between the 19 photos I took of the same scene, I keep of course, only the best: one photo. 

 

[Guest BlackBarn]

4 minutes ago, Dennis said:

And for that I'm willing to sacrifice the "robustness" for a better experience.

That says it all......and I have to agree.....for what is a photo if it isn’t a reflection of the photographer....and anything which enhances that can only be for the better.

Likewise I agree,  I don’t think you need the robustness of your current camera as you might be doing ‘more’ with less shooting...., just a backup strategy if the unlikely were to occur. 

[Dennis]

7 minutes ago, BlackBarn said:

That says it all......and I have to agree.....for what is a photo if it isn’t a reflection of the photographer....and anything which enhances that can only be for the better.

Likewise I agree,  I don’t think you need the robustness of your current camera as you might be doing ‘more’ with less shooting...., just a backup strategy if the unlikely were to occur. 

Agree with you that you agree with me jaja. If I decide to switch to Leica, I don't need the robustness of the D5, I'm not a wild photographer or shoot in volcanos. But because I know the D5 limits, and no idea yet the M10 limits, that is why I create this thread and asked you: to know more about it.

So far, I understood that beside the extreme conditions (which I don't need), using only the OVF and occasionally the LV, there are not problems at all regarding overheating or shoot thousands of photos in one event. And this makes me happy. 

[Stealth3kpl]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Misuse of the word ‘literally’ drives me figuratively insane.

an objectionable or unpleasant person or thing.

a thing possessing a specified quality.

I know what you mean, though. A lady once told me she "literally jumped over the moon", which would be quite an achievement.

Pete

Edited May 31, 2020 by Stealth3kpl

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Dennis said:

Which problems you had with your digital M cameras? 

With the M9 series of bodies it was primarily sensor problems, ( these are well documented throughout the Forum ), plus rangefinder alignment issues though the MM1 also suffered from a shutter problem too, it's sensor was changed four times before Leica got it right. The M240's had frame-line illumination problems plus 6 bit connectivity errors, one M10 became intermittently unresponsive to shutter release so I had it converted to an M10-P, the M10-D that's at Wetzlar right now had it's internal battery fail so it would not retain time/date settings plus the rear on/off/wifi switch has always been a problem requiring camera tape to prevent it self selecting.

By the way have you considered or tried the Leica Q / Q2 camera? The fixed 28mm focal length is I think a favourite of yours and yes even though it's an EVF based camera it could be a great back-up body and lens to your usage of a M10 as your primary tool. I have the original Q, it has performed solidly since I bought at when they first came out, ( when? ), and it's a camera that for me isn't worth not having in the arsenal. The image quality is first class, no question and you'd have AF and IBIS too should you need that. I wouldn't though dump your D5, you seem to have truly got the hang of working that camera and to have an DSLR-OVF is to my mind still way better than even the best EVF out there.

Visited your website. Great captured moments there.......Your images would still be good even if you lost your main gear and had to use a disposable camera. The "eye's" the thing.

[lykaman]

IMHO - Seeing how the OP works, I would say his arsenal should contain 3 M10's,  2 Q2's, & at least 5 batteries for each camera.. not forgetting an assortment of SD cards..  In the old days, one covered a wedding with an M6 (50mm) & R.6.2 (75mm) --   L

[Gobert]

IMHO TS is better equipped with his Nikons. It fits his method of photographing better.

Edited June 1, 2020 by Gobert

[onasj]

16 hours ago, Dennis said:

hahaha. It's my profession and I love it. I'm a honest visual storyteller who shoot weddings. I take picture of many many moments around the event, absolutely nothing posed or staged, 100% unscripted. And in 10 hours of coverage, believe me it's happening a lot. Yes, I shoot a lot I know, but I'm proud to delivery a complete story. If you are curious and want to understand more, look here 

Every time I go through Dennis's portfolio I'm inspired.  An ingenious blend of street and event photography that vividly captures the rich texture of humanity in an honest, unapologetic, yet uplifting way.  I hope you can cover our country in its current struggles!

Also, I suspect you will take great photos regardless of the equipment, and thus you'll do very well, with less backache, with a pair of M10 bodies and a 28/1.4, 50 APO, and 90 APO.  Will take some adjustment, fewer photos, maybe even lower hit rate with MF, but I doubt you'll miss many truly great shots that you would otherwise get with the D5, given your persistent style of shooting.

Edited June 1, 2020 by onasj

[dickgillberg]

Hi Dennis. I took a brief look at your pictures and it looks good. Would say that it's easier to stay with the camera that you're familiar with to do that kind of work, but if you want to challenge you're self. Why not take an M with you, might get some different pics. 

I work right now as a news paper photographer with a M10P with 50/1.4 or a 28/2 depending what I use on my Canon rig. Usually 16-35 or 70-200. Works beautifully, if I've a little more time for my subject I use my Leica to do their portrait, but otherwise I use the Canon as usual.   

[Mikep996]

I agree with those suggesting it would be interesting to try an M10 for what you do but, frankly, based on what you do, it strikes me more as an exercise in adapting "just to see if you can."  Kind of like using a set of metric wrenches to completely restore a '69 Chevy.  It could be done but it makes everything more difficult.  Not to say the challenge wouldn't be fun to try!

[dickgillberg]

Hi again Dennis,

I noticed, I did'nt answer your OP-question. That sad, my M's have not break down on me anytime when on assignment and I've had all of them from M8. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Dennis]

6 hours ago, petermullett said:

By the way have you considered or tried the Leica Q / Q2 camera?

I never tried, but I'm very very curious. I can't say anything before trying, right? But according to my past experience with EVF, I really feel I prefer an OVF, it doesn't matter if RF or DSLR. Thank you so much for your kind words 🙏 

7 hours ago, petermullett said:

The image quality is first class, no question and you'd have AF and IBIS too should you need that

Image quality and IBIS interests me, of course.

7 hours ago, petermullett said:

I wouldn't though dump your D5, you seem to have truly got the hang of working that camera

It's a buzz in my mind. Why changing if everything works fine? Because I enjoy more the M10 experience while scouting, carrying the camera, look through the OVF, no tens of buttons, small size, and weight ... Practically, I would love to enjoy the same approach and style, same mindset, but using the M system. It's challenging I know, but I love challenges 🙌
Thank you so much for your words 🙏 

6 hours ago, lykaman said:

IMHO - Seeing how the OP works, I would say his arsenal should contain 3 M10's,  2 Q2's, & at least 5 batteries for each camera.. not forgetting an assortment of SD cards.

Too much, maybe. But for sure, two M10 and three batteries for each camera, plus many 32gb cards ... And one mobile SSD to download the photos on the way. A few years ago, I was shooting with two DLSR bodies: one with a 35mm and an 85mm. Now I just use the D5 with a 35mm, and when needed, I just switch to a 58mm. I bring a D810 as a backup. In this way I can use only one camera all day long, I don't carry an extra body, so I can freely move, jump, and lay down on the floor. It's my NInja style.

4 hours ago, Gobert said:

IMHO TS is better equipped with his Nikons. It fits his method of photographing better.

I can't say, until I try M.

1 hour ago, onasj said:

with a pair of M10 bodies and a 28/1.4, 50 APO, and 90 APO.  

Exactly. Something like that. I would say 24+35+50... Cause I don't use any longer FL than 58. Maybe I could add a 75, who knows. And because I shoot a loot with my instinct, I would also use the 24 w/o EVF ... It must be pure OVF. But never tried a 24mm before on an M, we'll see. Thank you so much for your feedback 🙏

27 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Would say that it's easier to stay with the camera that you're familiar with to do that kind of work, but if you want to challenge you're self. Why not take an M with you, might get some different pics. 

Thank you! 🙏 Love challenges! And now that I have my second lens, I'm super excited to shoot another event with Leica M.

28 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

I work right now as a news paper photographer with a M10P with 50/1.4 or a 28/2 depending what I use on my Canon rig. Usually 16-35 or 70-200. Works beautifully, if I've a little more time for my subject I use my Leica to do their portrait, but otherwise I use the Canon as usual.  

You have a significant combined gear, ready for all situations. But my mindset is different, and I couldn't work with two different systems. Or I stick with DSLR, or I switch entirely to M. NO compromises. 

[Dennis]

9 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

I agree with those suggesting it would be interesting to try an M10 for what you do but, frankly, based on what you do, it strikes me more as an exercise in adapting "just to see if you can."  Kind of like using a set of metric wrenches to completely restore a '69 Chevy.  It could be done but it makes everything more difficult.  Not to say the challenge wouldn't be fun to try!

It would be a challenge for sure. And to demonstrate to my self I can do the same, no matter with tool i'm using, It could be rewarding. But most important, I'm a minimalist guy, I strongly believe that Less is More, and shooting with a Leica M, it's like the essence of photography. The D5 has tens and tens of buttons, it's heavy, it's huge, it's intimidating haha.

Also, because I'm confortable using 24-50mm FL range, I LOVE to see trough the Leica OVF, always the same frame, no matter which lens I'm using. But as you know, on a DSLR, you you put a 105, you don't see as 28mm.

Less back pain, more discrete, less gear, enjoying 100% all the process of shooting. And finally, more beautiful. It would be awesome

16 minutes ago, dickgillberg said:

Hi again Dennis,

I noticed, I did'nt answer your OP-question. That sad, my M's have not break down on me anytime when on assignment and I've had all of them from M8. 

That's a terrific news. For both 🙌