Pushing the Leica M10 to its limits

[Dennis]

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7 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Shooting thousands of frames of one event is what any serious (non-hobbyist) camera is built for.  Digital M cameras are certainly capable of that.

Glad to know. Five more points for Leica 👏👏👏

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[adan]

In terms of physical abuse, the weak point in a rangefinder is, well, the rangefinder.

Its multiple moving parts are more easily knocked out of adjustment than the one moving mirror in an SLR viewfinder, or zero moving parts of an EVF-mirrorless.

"More easily" is, of course, relative. David Douglas Duncan carried his Leica M3Ps through shellings and into water-filled foxholes, and other combat, in Vietnam.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/press-photo-vietnam-war-david-douglas-1920041945

As to intense usage (thousands of frames), it is probable that an M10 will hold up through any one given event just as well as a top-level SLR.

But an M10 blade shutter might go "sproing" after "only" a few hundred such events in total, compared to a shutter rated to 500,000 operations MTBF (mean time between failures). I don't know the exact MTBF specs for either the M10 or D5 shutters.

[W124]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Dennis:

+1 for Leica, oh yeah! No need AF, I'm getting used to the manual focus of the RF ... It's about practice and practice. I own Leica since 2018, but I'm a Pro so I usally win my gear/challenge fights 😃

Sorry about that, I struggle sometimes to find the appropriate words in english. But you got my point, right?

Of course. It's mandatory for me. Let's say I have an M10 and an M0-P. Can Leica become my main brand gear? 🤔

Hot it was shooting a wedding with Leica? Share your experience. When I shoot a wedding, for my work, I'm talking about 3500-5000 frame for all day coverage. Many many moments happening around, I can't resist w/o to shoot 🙂 And I work in S, no drive mode.

 

Well, due to the COVID-19 situation it was a smaller event and I'm not a professional.

I'm using slow drive mode with AutoISO in M or A mode. I did pre-focusing so I was free for concentrating on the situation.

At the end I selected 150 pictures.

I had a Sony A7sII with AF lense and face detection as a backup in my bag, but didn't use it.

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Edited May 31, 2020 by W124

[Dennis]

9 minutes ago, adan said:

In terms of physical abuse, the weak point in a rangefinder is, well, the rangefinder.

Its multiple moving parts are more easily knocked out of adjustment than the one moving mirror in an SLR viewfinder, or zero moving parts of an EVF-mirrorless.

"More easily" is, of course, relative. David Douglas Duncan carried his Leica M3Ps through shellings and into water-filled foxholes, and other combat, in Vietnam.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/press-photo-vietnam-war-david-douglas-1920041945

As to intense usage (thousands of frames), it is probable that an M10 will hold up through any one given event just as well as a top-level SLR.

But an M10 blade shutter might go "sproing" after "only" a few hundred such events in total, compared to a shutter rated to 500,000 operations MTBF (mean time between failures). I don't know the exact MTBF specs for either the M10 or D5 shutters.

Thank you for the info. Being the rangefinder the weakest point, I guess it's not about how many shots the camera can hit. I didn't take huge amount of photos so far with the M10, but I guess there will not be the problem. For the records, for the D5, "Nikon claims a shutter life expectancy of 400k actuations" . It would be good to know an approximate number for the M10.

 

So far according to your experiences, except for extreme weather conditions, the M10 seems to delivery what I'm asking for. I guess it's good news

[Dennis]

5 minutes ago, W124 said:

Well, due to the COVID-19 situation it was a smaller event and I'm not a professional.

But I'm sure you will make the couple happy!

[adan]

I expect the M10 shutter is rated for 250K activations MTBF - that is a fairly normal "medium" prosumer rating. Cheapo (sub-$1000) entry-level SLRs may be rated for 125K or less.

[edit: MTBF ratings are, of course, the center of a bell curve. A shutter rated for 250K MTBF may fail at 10K - or at 500K ]

As to the weather, the M10 is better-sealed than the M9 - but I used my M9s for 4 hours with no problems in these conditions (the Canon 5D2 AF failed first - temporarily ). Approx -5°C, 50 kph wind, and snow (obviously).

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Edited May 31, 2020 by adan

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, Dennis said:

Of course. It's mandatory for me. Let's say I have an M10 and an M0-P. Can Leica become my main brand gear? 🤔

 

 

Who knows....we all make choices and use/rely on gear in different ways.  I own an M10 and a Monochrom, and have used them many times in inclement weather and don't baby them; just use common sense  But let's say I go on a once in a lifetime trip to Antarctica, I'd rent a second SL2 weather sealed body to complement mine, and put my SL 24-90 weather sealed zoom on one, and my SL 90-280 sealed zoom on the other.  And carry lots of batteries and cards.

Jeff

[Dennis]

Thank you, very good to know! terrific image and awesome memory to keep. 

[Dennis]

Just now, Jeff S said:

But let's say I go on a once in a lifetime trip to Antarctica, I'd rent a second SL2 weather sealed body to complement mine, and put my SL 24-90 weather sealed zoom on one, and my SL 90-280 sealed zoom on the other.  And carry lots of batteries and cards.

It makes sense what you are saying. 

But if I really like to shoot with RF, an OVF, I enjoy it the whole process, etc etc, I would prefer to risk bringing two M10 and be 100% happy. Maybe somewhere else but not in Antartica, too cold for me 😅

 

[Jeff S]

I love the RF, but stick to 28 to 90 mm (currently just 28-50mm) lenses.  Beyond that, the SL2 EVF is light years ahead of the accessory M EVF, which I don’t even own.  Tools for the task.

For the best optical viewing, coupled with weather sealing (body and lenses), in the Leica world, that’s the S system.  Gorgeous viewfinder.

Jeff

[Dennis]

 

10 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

For the best optical viewing, coupled with weather sealing (body and lenses), in the Leica world, that’s the S system.  Gorgeous viewfinder.

 

Got your point Jeff. But the reason why a love the Leica M system is actually the OVF, with all its Pro and Cons. I really love to look through a clean glass, and not to something electronic. That's why I still prefer DSLR than mirrorless. I'm sure the S system is amazing, and once I'll have chance to test it out, I'll let you know. 

There is no point for me to get an EVF for the M, cause I enjoy to use the OVF. Also when I don't know what my exact composition will be. And this is the great thing and challenge of the RF. Amazing.

I also think that the S lenses are huge. If I think the size of "S 35 APO" vs a "M 35 Cron", wow.

[Dennis]

5 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Comparing analog M's from the film days with the digital M's of today is a big no-no. The digital M's of today are way inferior to their analog counterparts regarding abuse and durability. Sad but true. I still love the digital bodies though and have sold all my analog bodies (M6 TTL, MDa) bar my dad's IIIc.

Sad but true, exactly. That's why there is a part of me that would love to work with an analogic M-A , no electronic parts, no light meter: the idea of pure mechanic and made to last lifetime is incredible. But according to what your job is, you just can't.

 

[Jeff S]

20 minutes ago, Dennis said:

 

 

Got your point Jeff. But the reason why a love the Leica M system is actually the OVF, with all its Pro and Cons. I really love to look through a clean glass, and not to something electronic. That's why I still prefer DSLR than mirrorless. I'm sure the S system is amazing, and once I'll have chance to test it out, I'll let you know. 

There is no point for me to get an EVF for the M, cause I enjoy to use the OVF. Also when I don't know what my exact composition will be. And this is the great thing and challenge of the RF. Amazing.

I also think that the S lenses are huge. If I think the size of "S 35 APO" vs a "M 35 Cron", wow.

I’ve used Ms for over 35 years, got my first serious SLR in 1974, and finally got an EVF based camera (SL2) only 6 months ago, so I need no explanation regarding the benefits of optical viewing.  But, I have to say, the SL2 is a marvelous tool, with state of the art EVF and focus magnification, and the IBIS works with M and S lenses, too.  I also won’t be selling my M10 or Monochrom anytime soon. 😊

Jeff

[Dennis]

8 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I’ve used Ms for over 35 years, got my first serious SLR in 1974, and finally got an EVF based camera (SL2) only 6 months ago, so I need no explanation regarding the benefits of optical viewing.  But, I have to say, the SL2 is a marvelous tool, with state of the art EVF and focus magnification, and the IBIS works with M and S lenses, too.  I also won’t be selling my M10 or Monochrom anytime soon. 😊

Jeff

Good answer! And I'm very curious about SL system. Who knows, maybe the SL2 could be the perfect balance between what I love about my D5 and what I enjoy about M10. But I still believe with only an OVF can achieve what I want

Quick question: if you use M lenses on the SL2, how does it work to focus? 

Edited May 31, 2020 by Dennis

[Jeff S]

10 minutes ago, Dennis said:

Good answer! And I'm very curious about SL system. Who knows, maybe the SL2 could be the perfect balance between what I love about my D5 and what I enjoy about M10. But I still believe with only an OVF can achieve what I want

Quick question: if you use M lenses on the SL2, how does it work to focus? 

I leave my M lenses on my M bodies, but they work well on SL bodies with the M-L adapter.  Focus is manual, of course, but one can use magnification and/or focus peaking to assist with long or fast lenses like a Noctilux wide open.  Unlike with SL lenses, however, the magnification can’t be activated with a turn of the focus ring, which I enjoy when using native lenses.

The SL Summicrons, by the way, are relatively compact and well balanced, and arguably the best optically (resolution/contrast, etc) of any Leica lenses.  I own the SL 75, as I never liked the 75 frame lines on M bodies.  The L mount alliance also opens up the lens range (without an adapter) to a broad array of Panasonic and Sigma lenses, as well as using adapted lenses from Nikon, Canon and others.  And all benefit from IBIS on the SL2.  My two native SL zooms also have OIS.  Lots of options and flexibility.

Jeff

[Gobert]

3 hours ago, Dennis said:

+1 for Leica, oh yeah! No need AF, I'm getting used to the manual focus of the RF ... It's about practice and practice. I own Leica since 2018, but I'm a Pro so I usally win my gear/challenge fights 😃

Sorry about that, I struggle sometimes to find the appropriate words in english. But you got my point, right?

Of course. It's mandatory for me. Let's say I have an M10 and an M0-P. Can Leica become my main brand gear? 🤔

Hot it was shooting a wedding with Leica? Share your experience. When I shoot a wedding, for my work, I'm talking about 3500-5000 frame for all day coverage. Many many moments happening around, I can't resist w/o to shoot 🙂 And I work in S, no drive mode.

 

5000 frames on a wedding...... Good lord, what happened with the times that photography was a profession?

When I was professionally engaged in wedding photography, in the analog times, I returned home with maximum 10% of that number.

[Dennis]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

and arguably the best optically (resolution/contrast, etc) of any Leica lenses.

Interesting. But I have no experience to know more about. I just take the info and happy they are amazing lenses

3 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

I never liked the 75 frame lines on M bodies

+1

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

IBIS on the SL2

I'm sure it's an advantage. Plus the two slots card

 

Thank you for your feedback Jeff. Today I learned more about SL system, and that it could be a perfect candidate for what I need from a camera. Great! 

Now let's come back to the post topic, I'm still curious to know more about other users experiences.

 

[Dennis]

1 minute ago, Gobert said:

5000 frames on a wedding...... Good lord, what happened with the times that photography was a profession?

hahaha. It's my profession and I love it. I'm a honest visual storyteller who shoot weddings. I take picture of many many moments around the event, absolutely nothing posed or staged, 100% unscripted. And in 10 hours of coverage, believe me it's happening a lot. Yes, I shoot a lot I know, but I'm proud to delivery a complete story. If you are curious and want to understand more, look here 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Dennis said:

Sorry to hear your bad experiences with some M bodies. I don't need to push always the limits, I just want to know where the limits are. And as you are saying, I would need of course another back up camera. Can this be another M body? 🤔

 

Sure, if it's a paying job or a shoot that's important to me and the shooting style favours me using the M system I would always take a second M body along. It's the electronics more than the mechanicals that seem to be the main problems with the digital M's. Leica have the mechanics of their cameras down almost to perfection, it's those pesky electrons that seem to give the most trouble, at least in all the warranty work and repairs mine have been through.

Edited May 31, 2020 by petermullett
grammar

[Gobert]

10 minutes ago, Dennis said:

hahaha. It's my profession and I love it. I'm a honest visual storyteller who shoot weddings. I take picture of many many moments around the event, absolutely nothing posed or staged, 100% unscripted. And in 10 hours of coverage, believe me it's happening a lot. Yes, I shoot a lot I know, but I'm proud to delivery a complete story. If you are curious and want to understand more, look here 

Photo’s in the link are fine. But what’s your hit rate. How many of those 5.000 do you actually deliver to your customer?