The end of the line for Zeiss ZM?

[Peters]

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I was wondering if anyone had heard news as to whether or not Zeiss was going to release more ZM lenses? They could do with an update - particularly the wide angle lenses for better corner performance on a digital sensor, as well as a smaller 35mm 1.4. 

I understand Cosina has come out with very good wide angle lenses needing no corner fixes, as well as fast, compact 35mm and 50mms for Voigtlander. Was hoping they'd give a little love to the Zeiss line too...

[Guest]

Are most of the ZM lenses from the ikonta rangefinder days?

I know the 35mm f1.4 is a newer design but unsure if any others are more recent.

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[james.liam]

Zeiss released the ZM 1,4/35 to everyone's surprise. Who can tell.

Several of the existing line aren't usable on digital sensors as they were all designed for film and specifically to pair with the now-defunct ZM camera, like the 4,5/21 and 3,5/18. Even the 2,8/21 has issues. The vaunted 15mm remains on the website but lacks rangefinder linkage, while the 4/85 and 2,8/25 lack frame lines on a Leica.

Edited May 30, 2020 by james.liam

[giannis]

5 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Are most of the ZM lenses from the ikonta rangefinder days?

 

Nah, completely different. I guess you mean the Contax II days. Only some of the wideangles (21mm f/4.5, 35mm Biogons) can directly trace their lineage to the rf lenses. Zeiss went through a massive redesign of their lenses during the Contarex (SLR) era, their normals (planars etc.) and teles are related to those rather than the earlier asymmetrical sonnar designs. And so are their faster asymmetrical wideangles, pretty much anything with "Distagon" in its name.

[bayernfan]

6 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

Are most of the ZM lenses from the ikonta rangefinder days?

I know the 35mm f1.4 is a newer design but unsure if any others are more recent.

No, but what I found interesting is how many design cues they took from the Contarex line of lenses for the ZM barrel/exterior design.  There's that silly little focusing nub!

 

 

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[Peters]

2 hours ago, giannis said:

Nah, completely different. I guess you mean the Contax II days. Only some of the wideangles (21mm f/4.5, 35mm Biogons) can directly trace their lineage to the rf lenses. Zeiss went through a massive redesign of their lenses during the Contarex (SLR) era, their normals (planars etc.) and teles are related to those rather than the earlier asymmetrical sonnar designs. And so are their faster asymmetrical wideangles, pretty much anything with "Distagon" in its name.

I believe Ikonta was the medium format variant. The Zeiss Ikon was the film rangefinder, to which the ZM line were coupled with. They stopped making the Ikon back in 2012, but announced they would continue the ZM line, though I think only the 35mm 1.4 and one or two others were released since. It' a little strange that Cosina would take the Voigtlander line and refresh it with more quality, entering into Zeiss territory. 

[bayernfan]

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does Cosina pay to use the Zeiss brand name for ZM lenses?  Or did Zeiss contract Cosina to build it for them?

[giannis]

4 hours ago, Peters said:

I believe Ikonta was the medium format variant. The Zeiss Ikon was the film rangefinder, to which the ZM line were coupled with. They stopped making the Ikon back in 2012, but announced they would continue the ZM line, though I think only the 35mm 1.4 and one or two others were released since. It' a little strange that Cosina would take the Voigtlander line and refresh it with more quality, entering into Zeiss territory. 

Yeah I'm aware. But I thought he meant the Contax, cause the Ikontas were folders with no interchangeable lenses, and the Ikon ZM was just an M-mount camera, so no special lenses had to be made for it.

 

45 minutes ago, bayernfan said:

does Cosina pay to use the Zeiss brand name for ZM lenses?  Or did Zeiss contract Cosina to build it for them?

The latter. Zeiss designs etc., manufactured by Cosina to Zeiss specs/tolerances. Apart from the 15mm f/2.8 and the elusive 85mm f/2, that are made in Germany.

[bayernfan]

Thanks.  Am I correct is assuming that Cosina owns the rights to the Voigtlander name?

[luigi bertolotti]

3 hours ago, bayernfan said:

Thanks.  Am I correct is assuming that Cosina owns the rights to the Voigtlander name?

I don't think Cosina OWNS the brand name Voigtlander in strict terms... Voigtlander , from the times of the disruption of Zeiss Ikon (my Contarex is marked "Zeiss Ikon" but the box says "Zeiss Ikon Voigtlander") entered in a series of complex buy-sell vicissitudes... also Rollei was involved  into (in turn in deep troubles too)

I think that the brand name in itself still is owned by German legal entities (Ringfoto - Alfo...  a sales concern) who sources manufacturing to Cosina for "our" well known CV lenses, in the same way as Zess AG sources to them the manufacturing of several Zeiss lenses.

 

Edited May 31, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[TomB_tx]

Cosina has been a contract manufacturer for a long time, making cameras and lenses for other companies that those companies sold under their own name. I understand that’s the situation with Zeiss: Zeiss designed the ZM lenses and camera bodies and contracted Cosina to manufacture. I’ve heard Zeiss oversaw the production and Quality Control, at least initially. Zeiss chose to manufacture a couple of the ZM lenses in Germany - which you could tell by the prices! No doubt Cosina has benefitted by the experience for their own products.

I’m sure Cosina has licensed the Voigtlander name, and has full control over its use applied to their own products.

[jdlaing]

Voigtländer name is licensed to Cosina by Ringfoto GmbH & Co. ALFO Marketing KG.

[BradS]

15 hours ago, bayernfan said:

No, but what I found interesting is how many design cues they took from the Contarex line of lenses for the ZM barrel/exterior design.  There's that silly little focusing nub!

 

 

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Interesting. Thanks for pointing this out.

I really like that little focus nub. 

 

[BradS]

22 hours ago, Peters said:

I was wondering if anyone had heard news as to whether or not Zeiss was going to release more ZM lenses? They could do with an update - particularly the wide angle lenses for better corner performance on a digital sensor, as well as a smaller 35mm 1.4. 

I understand Cosina has come out with very good wide angle lenses needing no corner fixes, as well as fast, compact 35mm and 50mms for Voigtlander. Was hoping they'd give a little love to the Zeiss line too...

Surely Zeiss ZM lenses are still in production....no? They are readily available (not withstanding  the current deficit  of cargo flying out of Japan to the US) at all the major US retailers.

[Ko.Fe.]

Cosina Zeiss and Compact is oxymoron. This is why I have new CV 35 1.4 II VM.

Entire M mount might be not so profitable for Cosina anymore, too small market comparing to  AF FF mirror less. 

[james.liam]

19 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Cosina Zeiss and Compact is oxymoron. This is why I have new CV 35 1.4 II VM.

Entire M mount might be not so profitable for Cosina anymore, too small market comparing to  AF FF mirror less. 

I think they produce these lenses in batches and many months if not years, will pass before a new supply (or none at all) is forthcoming. The Leica R lenses were manufactured in similar batch production. But I agree, without a refresh, the demand for these (fantastic) lenses will dwindle to nothing. Cosina has filled in many of the ZM deficiencies already, with the 1,5/75, 3,5/21, RF-coupled 4,5/15 and the new 2/35. That may be Zeiss’ exit strategy. 

[luigi bertolotti]

Cosina (I think) makes also the Zeiss lenses for other mounts (the various Otus Batis...)  and maybe this is proving to be a better market / better business... 

[Runkel]

2 hours ago, james.liam said:

I think they produce these lenses in batches and many months if not years, will pass before a new supply (or none at all) is forthcoming. The Leica R lenses were manufactured in similar batch production. But I agree, without a refresh, the demand for these (fantastic) lenses will dwindle to nothing. Cosina has filled in many of the ZM deficiencies already, with the 1,5/75, 3,5/21, RF-coupled 4,5/15 and the new 2/35. That may be Zeiss’ exit strategy. 

What is the deficiency of the ZM Biogon 35/2?  Size?

Has anyone compared the new 35/2 and the ZM?

[TomB_tx]

My ZM Biogon 35 f2.0 is a very competent lens, significant IQ improvement on M9/10 over the 1970 Summicron I used from 1970 until getting the Biogon. Wide open it is very usable, if a bit soft (but much better than my ‘70 Summicron wide open). It has some coma wide open, but from 2.8 on I see nothing to criticize. Handling is good and everything feels precise.

However, being used to the tiny v2 Summicron (the smallest model) I notice the longer Biogon intruding in the VF more, and I prefer smaller lenses. So I seldom use it now except for dull days when its contrast is an advantage.

The 2.8 Biogon is said to have no negative characteristics, but I decided to try a 35 Summarit 2.5 instead, which is now my main lens for the M10.

On my M9 I now use a v2 35 Nokton 1.4. Nice speed for the M9 and ideal size and handling. I find the images very nice, if not terribly sharp at 1.4 - but unlike my other 35s it has a usable 1.4!

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[james.liam]

3 hours ago, Runkel said:

What is the deficiency of the ZM Biogon 35/2?  Size?

Has anyone compared the new 35/2 and the ZM?

It's a very capable lens, but as noted by Tom B The Texan, blocks the finder a bit and is larger than available options. It's optimized for ƒ/2,8, resulting in focus shift @ ƒ/2 so it merely appears soft (it isn't if used with an EVF). The 35 Biogon C has no appreciable focus shift and only marginally improves by stopping down. The 35 C is one of the best 35s out there in terms of resolution, distortion and absence of field curvature, improved upon only by the ZM 1,4/35  (the 35 Summilux FLE included).