Need advice on investing in Leica S system

[Nachapon Dumrongthumavoot]

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Greeting everyone on this forum, 

I'm from Thailand and have been a long time reader and admirer of various photos here, as a result, i do apologize if my English is not very good since it's not my native language. 

Regarding the topic, I have been seriously considered joining the Leica S family. I have used Leica M, SL and Q in the past but have then moved toward medium format and now is currently using Hasselblad X1d ii plus 21mm, 80mm and the 35-75 zoom. Overall i am very please with the output of this system however, i do miss the rendering of some of Leica lens ( f1 noct v4, 35 fle pre-asph etc). As a result, i have been looking through S photo and really love what i see in term of the atmosphere and  rendering.

Currently, i have been given a trade in option with my local dealer for my Hasselblad X1d gears with the S3. In addition, i also have talked with my senior friend who have the S system and is planning to quit the system due to his family matter. He offers to give his system for me to try out and is willing to sell them all at a very discounted price ( 35/75/120/180 and S2 )

So, i need advice on the following topic

1. All his lens and S2 is still working fine, however he never send them for AF change yet and they are very old. Is the AF motor issue affecting all S lens or just some certain model? 

2. I read that there is a noticeably difference in how the older S body (S2) and newer one rendered. So my plan is to trade in for S3 and keep the S2 as a back up and maybe pair it up with some lens for its difference rendering. Do the S2 sensor corrode over time and will eventually have the sensor problem that need replacement?  

3. I have demo them once at the boutique long time ago but i remember how responsive and how good it feel in the hand. My question is, how good it is as a outdoor and travel camera. I don't take photograph for a living so i'm not using this camera in the studio but will be using it on the field for landscape and as a travel camera. For comparison, i used to have Sl and noctilux as my teravel camera so i think am a bit used to heavier type of camera as a walk around camera ( X1D+ zoom is also quiet super heavcy as well ) 

Sorry for the wall of text and thank you in advance for your input. 

 

[frame-it]

maybe a good idea to go to Gaysorn and try the S out again

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[mgrayson3]

Good Morning,

1. I never had an S lens motor fail, but I sent all my lenses back to Germany too have the motors upgraded anyway. Why worry?

2. I had no sensor corrosion with my S(006). Not sure about the S2. Happy with the S(007) especially for the live-view manual focusing. Rendering differences are minor, and one can get very close in post processing. I found after a short while that I just started with the S(007) files and worked happily from there.

3. I took an S, 24, and 70 on a walking trip. It was heavy, but not unmanageable. There is no picture I've taken with another camera where I wouldn't have preferred the S. The X1D and a few lenses is half the weight of the S and lenses. But I traded in the X1D and kept the S.

Matt

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by mgrayson3

[Jeff S]

I tested the S006 and zoom a few years ago for a week and loved the viewing, ergonomics and rendering, but found the pairing limited for handheld use in other than good light due to ISO constraints.  A faster S prime would have helped, and the ISO range of the S007 (and surely the S3) would have provided far greater flexibility.  I wasn’t interested in tripod use.

I would suggest asking your friend for an opportunity to give the system a trial run, even with a lens or two, to see how you get along with it.

Reports here vary on lens failure.  Some have never had a problem, while others have had every (4-5) lenses fail, some even making manual mode non-functional.  And some found that lenses that worked on the S2 or S006, later failed on the S007 once a FW update speeded operation.  Others had no issues.  Take your chances or send them in (or buy elsewhere with new motors and dealer warranty).  If you haven’t already done so, check sales prices on used S gear, even with new motors; depreciation is significant, but has pretty much leveled off for now.

Jeff

[BernardC]

54 minutes ago, Nachapon Dumrongthumavoot said:

1. All his lens and S2 is still working fine, however he never send them for AF change yet and they are very old. Is the AF motor issue affecting all S lens or just some certain model? 

2. I read that there is a noticeably difference in how the older S body (S2) and newer one rendered. So my plan is to trade in for S3 and keep the S2 as a back up and maybe pair it up with some lens for its difference rendering. Do the S2 sensor corrode over time and will eventually have the sensor problem that need replacement?  

3. I have demo them once at the boutique long time ago but i remember how responsive and how good it feel in the hand. My question is, how good it is as a outdoor and travel camera. I don't take photograph for a living so i'm not using this camera in the studio but will be using it on the field for landscape and as a travel camera. For comparison, i used to have Sl and noctilux as my teravel camera so i think am a bit used to heavier type of camera as a walk around camera ( X1D+ zoom is also quiet super heavcy as well ) 

1. As far as I know, all S lenses use the same motor gear, which can fail. Keep that in mind when negotiating a price. You may want to ask your local Leica dealer/distributor what the charge and turnaround are for motor replacements.
2. The S2, S2-P, S-006, and SE all use CCD sensors similar to what was used in the M9. The S-007 and S3 use CMOS sensors. The look is somewhat different, and some people prefer one over the other. Your proposed system would have the best of both worlds, with an S2 and S3. The most obvious difference is that the CCD sensors get very noisy above ISO 800, while the CMOS sensors are good past 1600. The CCD sensors sometimes corrode, but it's not as common as it was for the M9. You can check for sensor spots by shooting pictures of an even surface at minimum aperture.
3. In terms of responsiveness, the S2 is slower than the S-006, which is slower than the 007 and S3. They can get a little heavy for travel, but you will have to decide if they are too heavy.

[Jeff S]

20 minutes ago, BernardC said:

1. As far as I know, all S lenses use the same motor gear, which can fail. Keep that in mind when negotiating a price. You may want to ask your local Leica dealer/distributor what the charge and turnaround are for motor replacements.

No, there was a 'permanent' replacement at some point.  Before that, motors were replaced with the same type motor that could fail again.  I haven't heard any reports of the new part failure.

Jeff

[ropo54]

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Most of your questions have been addressed by the others, above.

The usual cost for autofocus repair on the S lenses will cost between $300-500.  As a hobbyist, I've not sent in my lenses for repair and will likely wait for a failure before doing so.  

The S 007 would be a fine camera used handheld for travel, as it has a better ISO range compared to the S 006 (and the S2, from what I've read).  But, in nice daylight I'd think the S 006 can also be used handheld.

One other consideration is that the S lenses can also be used on the SL body, with Leica's adapter.  The lenses focus more slowly than SL lenses, but they render beautifully.  

Leica Miami has described the S images as having a character somewhat like a cross between the SL lenses and the M lenses.  Leica Miami recently did a broadcast about the Leica S series, and it is available on youtube.

I have an X1D and 45mm lens. It is a much easier camera to carry along and but is known for its slow operation.  I'm contented with the 45mm lens, but Leica has faster lenses across the board. 

Regards, Rob

 

[darylgo]

My S2 developed sensor corrosion and the cover glass cracked.  Leica replaced the sensor and recalibrated the camera for less than $1000.  It's like new.  The S2 is slightly sluggish, however IQ is excellent and the camera is a well worth the price they're selling for.  

Regarding a start into the system today I would be very hesitant given that Leica's attention is currently centered on the SL and M.  Leica considers the S system to be mature and development is slow with bodies, non-existent with lenses.   If you can live with that and lenses that might need service the camera has that beautiful feel and IQ that is Leica. 

 

 

 

 

[tom0511]

Am 27.5.2020 um 14:47 schrieb Nachapon Dumrongthumavoot:

Greeting everyone on this forum, 

I'm from Thailand and have been a long time reader and admirer of various photos here, as a result, i do apologize if my English is not very good since it's not my native language. 

Regarding the topic, I have been seriously considered joining the Leica S family. I have used Leica M, SL and Q in the past but have then moved toward medium format and now is currently using Hasselblad X1d ii plus 21mm, 80mm and the 35-75 zoom. Overall i am very please with the output of this system however, i do miss the rendering of some of Leica lens ( f1 noct v4, 35 fle pre-asph etc). As a result, i have been looking through S photo and really love what i see in term of the atmosphere and  rendering.

Currently, i have been given a trade in option with my local dealer for my Hasselblad X1d gears with the S3. In addition, i also have talked with my senior friend who have the S system and is planning to quit the system due to his family matter. He offers to give his system for me to try out and is willing to sell them all at a very discounted price ( 35/75/120/180 and S2 )

So, i need advice on the following topic

1. All his lens and S2 is still working fine, however he never send them for AF change yet and they are very old. Is the AF motor issue affecting all S lens or just some certain model? 

2. I read that there is a noticeably difference in how the older S body (S2) and newer one rendered. So my plan is to trade in for S3 and keep the S2 as a back up and maybe pair it up with some lens for its difference rendering. Do the S2 sensor corrode over time and will eventually have the sensor problem that need replacement?  

3. I have demo them once at the boutique long time ago but i remember how responsive and how good it feel in the hand. My question is, how good it is as a outdoor and travel camera. I don't take photograph for a living so i'm not using this camera in the studio but will be using it on the field for landscape and as a travel camera. For comparison, i used to have Sl and noctilux as my teravel camera so i think am a bit used to heavier type of camera as a walk around camera ( X1D+ zoom is also quiet super heavcy as well ) 

Sorry for the wall of text and thank you in advance for your input. 

 

1. all lenses can be affected as far as I know. In my case I had 5 out of 8 lenses have showed the problem so far.

2. as far as I know yes - you have the risk of sensor corrosion

3. I find the S works good as a outdoor/travel camera, as long as you do not want to bring too many lenses. I usually carry 2 lenses with the body in a backpack. I recntly also added a 30-90 to my "collection" which I like quite a bit. The x1d and x primes are clearly lighter and smaller than the S lenses though.

[Sarnian]

5 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I recntly also added a 30-90 to my "collection" which I like quite a bit. 

How are your corners at 30mm? 🙃

[xiaubauu2009]

1. 4 out of 6 of my lens have AF issues before Leica is willing to openly address this issue. It is a high probability that it will fail, particularly if you don't use it regularly. For those who were unwilling to wait for the change of that little polymer spur gear, we resorted to replace that gear with a brass one that will never have this issue our self... and in the process damage all the warranty. hahahah Anyway, don't ask me why, cause it's China, nobody gives a shit to consumer rights, sending it to Wetzlar will warrant you to be tax going out and coming back in.... So normally people will carry it over to Tokyo to have it fix there. Only in 2017 that there's a Office Leica repair store in this place.

2. Prefer the rendering of the CCD S, cause the CMOS rendering is bit too generic. Color profile/science is another matter, Leica is special in this sense.

3. Heavy piece of kit, and once used to IBIS, it is really not as versatile. But it is a very good performer. By the way, since the price of second lens/body tank so much, It's a good chance to invest. 

[Nachapon Dumrongthumavoot]

Thank you for all the input here, i really appreciated them all. 

Hopefully i will have the S2 and his other lens to try out next week. Again, really appreciated how nice the community is and will report back as soon as i tried them. 

 

[tom0511]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb Sarnian:

How are your corners at 30mm? 🙃

I have not had subjects so far where I had critical stuff in the corners, and I havent searched for a corner problem either. Overall I am quite satisfied with the lens so far. Also I like the long end.

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

As mentioned before I got my S3 at the 13th of February. In the meantime I only was traveling around my home because of the known Corona Situation. So I only took some hundred pictures. I called them test pictures even with regard to my Asus 1.920 px monitor. As I got not the best results I decided to switch over to the new MS Surface Sudio 2 showing 4.500 x 3.00 px(Adobe-rgb Monitor ICC profile added).

After using this pack over about 4 weeks I can confirm the combo meats my requirements (pictures of landscapes or nature) in any way. At the moment I am waiting "for freedom" in oder to go to my secound home at the Belgian coast in oder to take the first S3 pictures. Over the years I took my new cameras there each time to check their qualities at selected places and situations. But I am convinced all things will function well. I think the new S3 is up to date and my investment of nearly € 30000 was well done.

Regards Hans

Edited June 1, 2020 by Hans-Dieter Gülicher

[GMB]

I am an early adopter of the S system.  I had the S2, have the S006, and will get the S007 soon.  I have 7 lenses (24, 35, 70, 100, 120, 180, and 30-90).  I have taken the camera to 4 continents on different types of vacation, and on hikes with a few lenses and a tripod.  Also, I am not doing photos for a living.

1. I had AF focus failure on 2 of my lenses (120 and 100). I now had the AF motor changed on all other lenses as well.  It costs a few hundred dollars/Euro, but I now feel safe.  I think the fact that the AF motor was not changed should not deter you from buying, but should be reflected in the price.

 

2. Both my S2 and my S006 had sensor corrosion.  For the S006, I discovered it within the 5 years and it was changed for free.  For the S2, I noted too late. The cost for the replacement is 4,500, which does not make sense economically.  It is true that the S006 has some advantages over the S2 (faster AF, marginally better performance at higher ISO), but the S2 is still a superb camera by all means.  However,  buying one with an old sensor carries a certain risk, in particular if you travel to different climate zones.

3. I have used the system for travel.  But I also left it at home and used the M when I wanted to travel light. I think much depends on you mode of travel and transport. 

In conclusion, a superb system.  I think getting a good S2 or S006 with a couple of lenses, then try out the system, is a great approach.  You do not risk much.  The good thing for those new to the system is that there is a good supply of second hand lenses these days.

Let us know what you did and then show some pictures.

Georg

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

As mentioned first I bought a second hand 007 and together with the 35 mm lens from the Leica Store Wetzlar. Secound I changed the lens and switched over to a new 30 - 90 mm. Third I noticed sensor corrotion and returned the 007 back to Wetzlar. At the 13th of February finally I got my new S3 (I was told it is a completely handmade one and the first deliverd).

Now I hope to go to the Belgian Coast (tweede verblijf) in the next week.

Regards Hans

[Nachapon Dumrongthumavoot]

So after i got to try an s 007 at the dealer, it confirms my decision to move into S system.

Despite being older, it feel so much better and more robust in my hand than my x1d. The photo is fantastic and i'm sure that S3 will be even more impressive.

As a result, i order the S3 along with 45 cs + 100 ( i luckily get a pretty good discount for this whole set). At first, i'm a bit reluctant since there are very good deal in the second hand market, however, these two lens are pretty rare ( as far as i have search) and the cost of shipping to where i live is pretty substantial as well. 

Now i'm waiting for them to arrive, hopefully within this next  1-2 weeks. 

I don't want to fall further down the GAS rabbit hole any further than i already did, but a friend of mine that i mention will come see me on this 10th of june and will bring along his gears for me to test for a few week. 

His asking price for his whole set for S2( already change sensor)  + 35/70/120/180 ( no AF motor replacement) + battery + charger+ flash is around 13,000 USD. 

I know with 45+100, they pretty much cover most of what i want to shoot, So my plan is to just try his lens for a couple of weeks to see how they fair and see what goes from there.

 

 

 

[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

I have paid € 7000 for the second hand 007 plus 35 mm lens at the Leica Store Wezlar (included sensor corrosion). I did pay nothing for the new sensor. But I got the € 7000 back after recieving my new S3 plus 30-90er lense. I hope there will be neither sensor corosion nor dust on the miror in future. Thump up !!!

Regards Hans and much fun with your prospective 007

[GMB]

1 hour ago, Hans-Dieter Gülicher said:

I have paid € 7000 for the second hand 007 plus 35 mm lens at the Leica Store Wezlar (included sensor corrosion). I did pay nothing for the new sensor. But I got the € 7000 back after recieving my new S3 plus 30-90er lense. I hope there will be neither sensor corosion nor dust on the miror in future. Thump up !!!

Regards Hans and much fun with your prospective 007

Sensor corrosion was/is an issue for the CCD sensors of the S2 and S006.  I never heard of corrosion for the CMOS sensor of the S007.  This is the first time that someone mentions this here or in other fora. While there may have been issues with this particular S007, it certainly was not corrosion.  It may have been spots on the sensor from oil from the shutter mechanism, but these can be cleaned. As far as dust, the only option to prevent dust is never change the lens.

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[Hans-Dieter Gülicher]

Sorry GMB, it`s not my analysis.

I went to Leica Wetzlar because I thought of a lot of dirt on the miror of my 4 week ago bought second hand 007. Than the Leica people told me it`s sensor corrosion and the sensor shoud be changed. They did so and I got back my 007 after about 4 weeks. They also renewed the leather covering and set up the 007 onto the latest state of art.

Regards Hans, by the way, it`s only 170 km = 1.5 h from my home near Cologne to Wetzlar

Edited June 4, 2020 by Hans-Dieter Gülicher