28mm : Summicron vs. Elmarit

[a.noctilux]

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1 hour ago, LHOTE said:

Hello,

I have a question

It is agreed to say between two lenses of the same focal length as for example :

- A Summicron 28mm (F2 max)

- An Elmarit 28mm (F2.8 max)

That the Summicron will be better at F2.8 than the Elmarit.

But is the opposite also true, namely :

- Summicron (F16 min)

- Elmarit (F22 min)

At F16 is the Elmarit better than the Summicron?

Thank for your advice

As Jaapv wrote, nothing can be said without using the particular lens,

"better or worse" lens is only "in real use", better is to learn to use the lens than comparing them with other's opinions.

I'm lucky to be able to use many 28mm Leitz/Leica lenses, not one is better than others.

the size difference of them just for fun

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I do use other 28mm, older though

left M-Hexanon ( f/2.8 = f/2 Leica in size )

the two at right are in screw mount

[Ouroboros]

I used the 28mm summicron asph v1 for a number years on my MP and I liked it’s character very much.  I disliked the absurd plastic  hood intensely, but that alone was not a good enough reason to change the lens for the v2, despite me boing an habitual lens hood user.

Enter the safari edition with it’s sliding hood.  I added an M10-R BP to my Leica gear and I bought the 28mm summicron safari.  IMO, the Safari, essentially a 28mm summicron v2,  has slightly improved contrast but similar oof fall-off to the v1.  With it’s  better ergonomics over both the v1 and standard v2 due to the sliding hood, the safari is a nicely rounded and compact 28mm for my use.  I also like the mismatch in colour between the olive green paint of the 28mm safari edition with the black paint of my MP and M10-R (I have since added  both the 50mm & 90mm safari éditions to complete the set).

I also have a 28mm summaron-m.  I would not have this as my only 28mm but  I like the contrasting character of this lens with my summicron safari on film.  I often dislike the rendering on the sumnaron-m on the M10-R.

28 mm or equivalent aov is my most used and for many years I also used a CV 28mm color-skopar f3.5 on my MP.   This lens was so good optically that I never felt the urge to upgrade it to the 28mm elmarit asph v1. I sold it recently only because I was no longer using it enough to justify keeping it.
 

 M’y feeling is that the 28mm elmarit asph  v1&2 are excellent little lenses and most owners would be happy with them, but the summicron isn’t exactly large anyway.  I personally prefer the extra stop and more pleasing rendering at f2.8 of the summicron  over the elmarit.  The size and weight difference between the two is not important  for me.

To the OP I would say the 28mm summicron any version is a great all-round 28mm that will not leave you wanting  in most situations.  It has a bit of character and you now have the choice of the v2 with an improved hood and slightly better performance in standard form on digital, or the same in either safari or matt black editions with the sliding hood.  

Edited June 13, 2022 by Ouroboros

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[lct]

3 hours ago, LHOTE said:

It is agreed to say between two lenses of the same focal length as for example :

- A Summicron 28mm (F2 max)

- An Elmarit 28mm (F2.8 max)

That the Summicron will be better at F2.8 than the Elmarit.

As far as sharpness is concerned i would agree generally but there are probably exceptions. 

[Franka373]

+1 on the 28 safari.  The slide out hood is all the difference.  The summicron is now a very nice low profile lens.  And the lens can be found new in some Leica stores. 

[mikelevitt]

On 6/13/2022 at 6:10 AM, lct said:

As far as sharpness is concerned i would agree generally but there are probably exceptions. 

I think in this case you have to define "better."  I own both lenses.  I am not a lens tester and do not generate MTF charts.  But my anecdotal impression is that the Elmarit is one of the sharpest, most contrasty, and most vibrant lenses I have ever used.  The Summicron is a more muted, gentle and less contrasty rendering.  I would guess that the Elmarit would produce a sharper looking result wide open than the Summicron would at 2.8.  Both create beautiful photos, I love both lenses, and enjoy them both.  Neither one is better, but most people would probably say the Elmarit was better because of the more aggressive and contrasty presentation.  It is also a much easier task to design a slow lens than a fast one, and faster lenses tend to have optical compromises to get their speed that slow lenses don't have to make.  For example the Canon 50mm 1.8 kit lens is sharper at 1.8 than the $2000 50mm 1.2.

 

The Elmarit is an amazing value for a Leica lens, and tiny and convenient to carry.  I have the Safari elmarit and would echo Franka in saying that the slide out hood is great.   It's also very small, but not as small as the elmarit.  I purchased both new, and you cannot go wrong with either lens.

Edited June 15, 2022 by mikelevitt

[pippy]

6 minutes ago, mikelevitt said:

...I have the Safari elmarit...

Is there a 'Safari' Elmarit?

P.

[lct]

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13 minutes ago, mikelevitt said:

I think in this case you have to define "better."

At f/2.8, my Summicron 28/2 asph v2 has a bit more resolution and contrast, especially at edges and corners, a bit less distortion and significantly less CA than my Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 (no experience with v2). Subjectively, i find the Summicron a bit less harsh with slightly smoother bokeh than the Elmarit that i like much otherwise. A more relevant comparison would be between the Elmarit and the Ultron 28/2 asph IMHO as those lenses are more compact with a similar character and are more affordable than the Summicron obviously.

[lct]

37 minutes ago, pippy said:

Is there a 'Safari' Elmarit?

Must be the chrome version of the M8.2 Safari set i guess.

 

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[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Is there a 'Safari' Elmarit?

P.

There is.

[pippy]

9 hours ago, lct said:

Must be the chrome version of the M8.2 Safari set i guess.

 

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Thanks. I'd seen the silver-chrome version with the clip-on hood (is it a 12504?). I was really wondering about a 'Safari' Elmarit with a slide-out hood which I thought mikelevitt mentioned in post #25...

"I have the Safari elmarit and would echo Franka in saying that the slide out hood is great."

...but re-reading the post I suspect that I was slightly confused in my interpretation and that the slide-out hood he mentions is on a Summicron and not the Elmarit.

Just FWIW;  previously I hadn't considered using a 12504 on my v1 Elmarit asph but having seen the snaps of the M8 Safari and having just tested the combination out for myself I notice that as there's no vignetting I might use that hood when I wish to use a circ. pola as it's far easier to adjust the orientation of a Serie VII pola in the 12504 than it is with a POOTR nestled inside the 'correct' hood.

Every Day is a School-day!

Philip.

[lct]

Other cameras like M9-P Hammertone and/or Red Leather limited edition were sold with a silver version of the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 if memory serves but i don't recall having heard of a Safari version of it properly speaking. Our colleague @jdlaing knows more about this possibly. As for the 12504 hood it used to be sold in silver version as well. I have no experience of using 12504 hoods with a polar filter though. 

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[jdlaing]

Just now, lct said:

Other cameras like M9-P Hammertone and/or Red Leather limited edition were sold with a silver version of the Elmarit 28/2.8 asph v1 if memory serves but i don't recall having heard of a Safari version of it properly speaking. Our colleague @jdlaing knows more about this possibly. As for the 12504 hood it used to be sold in silver version as well. I have no experience of using 12504 hoods with a polar filter though. 

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There was a green 28 Elmarit lens. It was an R lens but by golly it was a Safari edition. 😃

[jdlaing]

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[pippy]

2 hours ago, lct said:

...As for the 12504 hood it used to be sold in silver version as well. I have no experience of using 12504 hoods with a polar filter though...

I already use the Leica Serie VII / 12504 with my '74 v2 35mm Summilux so am familiar with the set-up.

I wasn't aware that there would be no cut-off using the 35mm hood on a 28mm lens. The POOTR is a great filter but if changing from landscape-to-portrait orientation it's a very fiddly matter if the small hood of the v1 asph Elmarit.

The trick when using the 12504 is to place the Pola into the lower part of the hood in such a way as to know the position of the Yellow Dot once the hood is assembled. I use one of the clip-on pins. This way it's a simple matter to know when the Pola is at its most effective and rotating the whole hood on the lens by 90 degrees allows for swapping between horizontal / vertical snapping.

Philip.