The anti-modernism rant- controversy warning!

[jaapv]

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snip

 

and don't get me wrong, it takes a lot of photographic talent to take a gripping newsphoto, but those are meant to convey a record of reality.

 

 

snip

 

 

Again, there are "journalistic" (in the broadest sense) exceptions, and a winder enabling one to keep the camera smoothly to the eye is a good thing,

 

 

Wrong snips, Fahim - and read the tags

Btw I thought the Camel's name was Aunt Becky

[fursan]

Wrong snips, Fahim - and read the tags

 

Right snips, Jaap..read your post.

 

Let's just say I disagree with the general drift of this post of yours. I also believe that photography is there

to be enjoyed by all. The greatest images that have been captured are the ones that to a photog have meaning.

 

Most of the camera equipment sales are to uneducated like my Auntie and most of the images captured

are of her nephews and nieces and poodles.

 

If such folks choose to do it by autofocus, autobracketing, multiple shots and with the most expensive

equipment..good luck to them. They too capture something that is important to them..maybe not to me and you.

 

Regards.

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[jaapv]

Fahim, I do not see any negative East-West hemisphere, North-South hemisphere or anti journalism- reality remarks there... The tags read Devils Advocate too.....

[fursan]

Jaap, I agree that there is no negativity inyour post re: hemispheres etc. However, I feel

that while playing the ' devil's advocate ' your post ( not necessarily you ) seems to suggest ( to me at least ) that those who use automated everything are somehow to

be ridiculed. And more so if they use expensive equipment to just P&S. And since this

is a leica forum, equipment should/would logically pertain to Leica.

 

My rant about so called award winning images relates to the fact that most prize

winning awards have been granted to a certain genre of images. These images

are there for all to see draw their conclusions.

 

Have a nice evening, Jaap.

 

Fahim, I do not see any negative East-West hemisphere, North-South hemisphere or anti journalism- reality remarks there... The tags read Devils Advocate too.....

[Shootist]

Imants, I find it mildy amusing that you are complaining about other people's ego and ability, since you are without question the member of this forum with the largest ego:ability ratio.

 

Don't you have some students or photos to mutilate or something? Why don't you clean the . key on your keyboard, it seems to get stuck with alarming regularity.

 

 

Here, Here. As I clap my hand vergorously.

 

No comment on the elitist comment. I once said something similar on this forum, (I think I said Snobs), and was chastise for it. But that doesn't change the fact that ALL Leica M owners are elitists ( and even R owners), of one type or another. Even ME.

[jaapv]

Jaap, I agree that there is no negativity inyour post re: hemispheres etc. However, I feel

that while playing the ' devil's advocate ' your post ( not necessarily you ) seems to suggest ( to me at least ) that those who use automated everything are somehow to

be ridiculed. And more so if they use expensive equipment to just P&S. And since this

is a leica forum, equipment should/would logically pertain to Leica.

 

My rant about so called award winning images relates to the fact that most prize

winning awards have been granted to a certain genre of images. These images

are there for all to see draw their conclusions.

 

Have a nice evening, Jaap.

 

 

I think you missed my point. It is the fault of automation that photography is in danger of losing part of its creativity. And that photographers are losing part of their skills.

[cme4brain]

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Now that Rangefinders seem to be on the upswing I have gotten to thinking about the return to the basics that implies, and I came up with a few disservices the Industry did to serious photography:

 

Looking at the above comments, I am not sure how elitist the above comments is, although there is no more elitist forum than one for Leica cameras! I agree with most of it. Were you to (as you previously could) sample all the photographs taken by the general public (who outnumber professionals 10,000 to one) at al the Ritz Camera stores or Wal-Marts, you would be very critical of the photos taken- too dark/light, too far away from the subject, etc. Auto-everything cameras are cool gadgets to the general public and maybe one out of 30 pictures actually turn out to be a good one. Many of the general public use their DSLR's as P&S, we know that. They probably never take the kit lens off the camera! Profesional DSLR's have their place however- could you photograph a fast-moving wedding party (non-formal non-posed shots) without one doing autofocus, autoflash? It would be difficult certainly.

 

I would say then that our Leicas and rangefinders (the implied technology forcing someone to know what they are doing rather than rely on a computer chip) allow us to enjoy photography and produce results far better than the general public. I quietly know that fact, but do not boast it to all my relatives.

[zlatkob]

I completely disagree with the first post. The three features mentioned do no disservice to serious photography at all. They are great, extremely useful features -- though one has to add, "when properly used." And they suck when improperly used, but that's not the fault of the Industry or the camera; that's simply user error.

 

Car analogies always seem to work well to explain this. Just because your sports car can drive 200 miles per hour, doesn't mean you should always be driving at 200 mph. Or just because your truck can pull 2 tons of weight doesn't mean you should always drive it while pulling 2 tons of weight.

 

Autofocus is a brilliant tool. It enables me to make so many photographs that wouldn't otherwise happen. Of course, one has to know it's limitations. But everything has limitations. The human eye and brain have limitations, a rangefinder has limitations. Learning the limitations of your system (and learning how to overcome them) is part of the process of learning photography. I think that the problems blamed on autofocus, motordrives and autoexposure are simply beginner's mistakes and not a fault of the technology.

[dist]

So this whole thing was a devil's advocate post, glad to have learned that. What I find disconcerting is that most readers (myself included) find this kind of snotty statements perfectly expectable in this forum. Tells a story, doesn't it.

 

While it is true that automation will degrade users' abilities over time I don't really see much of a point in lamenting about the fact. When was the last time you used a starter crank to fire up your car? My second to last motorbike still had a kickstarter but my present one doesn't. Unlike those implements, manual focus and exposure are still around and can be used at the user's discretion. If most users nowadays choose not to do so, more power to them. I couldn't care less. I have the freedom to pick a camera that will allow me to choose from full manual and automatic-all-the-way modes, and many steps in between.

[Guest tummydoc]

We amateur photographers have the luxury of eschewing whatever technology feature we care to. I've even run across a few professional (and some wannabe professional) photographers who for some reason, perhaps related more to personal insecurity than photographic rationale, tend to brag about their ability to bypass modern technology and moreover ridicule those who embrace it as being lazy or less competent. Ironically they do this whilst seated behind a computer linked to the www

I've always wanted to see the reaction of those persons would they be lying on a gurney and the ER doc is standing over them bad-mouthing MRI, PET, CAT and ultrasonography and claiming that his 2 hands and a stethoscope are all he ever uses to diagnose a patient

 

Autfocus and autoexposure and motor drives all have "off" switches, for those that can't or don't want to learn how to use them effectively to expand their abilities.

[jaapv]

True, Vinay, But, the original focus function is usually not very impressive on cameras where it can be switched off. Regarding your analogy to medicine, well, I travel a lot in the third world and I run a foundation that sends surgeons into rural Malawi. It is amazing what is possible with very rudimentary equipment. Not even a fridge in the "lab"....

[andybarton]

What I find disconcerting is that most readers (myself included) find this kind of snotty statements perfectly expectable in this forum. Tells a story, doesn't it.

 

Not quite sure what you are getting at here.

 

The content of this forum is provided by the users, of course. You seem to be saying that most users expect to read snotty statements.

[carstenw]

That would mean that most users would also *write* snotty statements, wouldn't it?

[ddp]

perhaps he meant "acceptable"

[jrc]

But does that mean that you wouldn't prefer that your doctors has first-rate, well-lighted operating rooms with good digital backup and fully-equipped labs?

 

There's a huge range of photogaphy for which auto-everything cameras are just fine. I have an M8 and a D2x, and on a recent trip to Austria and Israel I carried nothing but a D-Lux 3, because all I planned to take was snapshots and that's what I did and I'm happy with them. When you're talking about wedding and sports photography, auto cameras are extremely useful.

 

I think in the OP Jaap was basically commenting on people who set themselves up as "art" photographers and then let the camera do most of the work, and never squeeze the most out of it. And on that basis, I somewhat agree with you. A lot of "street" shots I see presented as art just seem to me to be shots taken in dim light with motion streaks, and not much to them. Whatever you think of Jeff Wall's photography, you have to admire the calculation and technique that go into them; at least you know his stuff is not an accident.

 

As for imants' ego-ability ratio, I'd have to say that I've alwawys liked his images, but wouldn't doubt that his ego is also substantial. But so what? If you're gonna be an artist, you need the ego, because there's a good possibility that it's the only thing that keeps you moving...Sort of funny, though, that in a discussion of art photography in a Leica forum, imants is using the word "elitist." Is there any one here who has NOT shot their Leica out the window of their Porsche? 8--)

 

JC

[fursan]

What I meant by the genre of award winning images. Starve them, kill them, deprive them

and then walk in with a camera ( leica of course ) and supplies of medical equipment and

each doctor wielding a camera to cature the perfect image.

 

maybe collect a few photographic awards..since I guess the lack of medical

facilities would provide a host of photographic opportunities and of course

a grateful but sick people would be ever so grateful to Bwana.

 

I guess it would not make any difference to the poor souls, but i am sure autofocus

autobracketing and motor drives would get at least one image to make it

all wothwhile.

[guy]

I meant in decent cameras. There have always been snapshot cameras around, at least during the battle for supremacy of the RF and SLR.

 

So Carsten and I both own (a) a Leica, ( at least one Voigtlander lens, © a DSLR, (d) a Mac, and (e) a Moleskine notebook.

 

The coolest thing about Moleskines is the little pouch in the back. I was telling a friend of mine about this, pulled down a Moleskine from my shelf to show him, opened the pouch, and found €80 inside left over from some forgotten foreign jaunt. So now we refer to it as the MAGIC pouch. Carsten, try it, it may work for you too.

[carstenw]

I just looked, but the pocket in my Moleskine had only two bills

[charlesphoto99]

Well, I find the original premise of this thread to be both correct...and.... yawn...overdone and incredibly boring. I've seen just as many poor photos from M users as I have dslr users. It's the photographer and their talent that ultimately wins the day, no matter what the subject or camera used.

 

And I've used auto everything film and digital cameras in conjunction with my Ms and medium format cameras for ages now. I rarely use autofocus, though that time I had to ride around on the back of a motorbike in central London shooting another motorbike messenger - it was essential. There's an off and on button to everything. And I've missed plenty of shots with the M as well because it can be quite fiddly. It's all relative - there's no magic bullet.

 

One of my favorite party tricks is to ask the host if I can use their p&s to go around and take photos. On several occasions after the fact they ask me what I did to their camera to make the pictures come out so much better. Usually not much (cleaning the lens and maybe adjusting a few menu items) besides knowing how the focus point works and then using good old fashioned composing to capturing moments and details.

 

I think the biggest disservice to amateurs is digital (I'm talking at the p&s level). With film the shots were almost always better than the tiny sensor that gets overblown by flash etc.

Of course this is changing as the cameras get somewhat better, but I know my girlfriend pulls out her Leica C1 p&s 9 times out of 10 over her digtal p&s. And her photos always look great. Autofocus, auto exposure and all. She has a good eye and absolutely no aspirations to be a photographer, amateur or otherwise. She just likes to record the moments in her life, and honestly comes up with shots a lot better than many I see on here with $4000 lenses. It's really about the eye!

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[andym911]

Jaapv,

 

I find many of your posts pretty informative normally, then I read this one.

 

Autofocus, Autoexposure and Autobracketing a disservice to serious photography?.....mmmm, I think not...I would call that progress.

I guess I know where you're coming from but I think your points made a bordering on angry, elitist, condescending and purer than pure kind of attitude.

I personally use all of the above functions when needed or appropriate, and sometimes none, its called choice and because I have the choice I am happy.

 

I am constantly impressed when I see superb images being made on P&S, Consumer DSLR's or whatever by people who are very creative but not tecky.The Camera Industry has enabled a much wider audience capable of taking great images without having to worry too much about focus or exposure, I think they deserve some credit.

 

Many of the most famous images made in the last years would not have been made without these features.

 

anyway have a good day and smile...

 

andy