M10 focusing...

[jdlaing]

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55 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Be sure your eyes are corrected for any astigmatism and, of course, distance.  The focus patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m.  I wear glasses that correct for both issues, but as I’ve gotten closer to 70, I have I benefited from an additional +.5 diopter.  You can order diopters from a good dealer to try, and send back any that don’t help.  Or, as I did, use free trial diopters at a local optician before ordering.

After that, if still a problem, send to DAG.

Jeff

I think you mean the framelines are set for accuracy at two meters. I think the focus patch has nothing to do with that.

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

I think you mean the framelines are set for accuracy at two meters. I think the focus patch has nothing to do with that.

Two different issues.  The focus patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m on all digital Ms.Frame lines are generally optimized for specific distances...2m on the M10, M240 and M8.2.... 1m on the M9... and .7m on the original M8. 

Jeff

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[jdlaing]

10 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Two different issues.  The focus patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m on all digital Ms.Frame lines are generally optimized for specific distances...2m on the M10, M240 and M8.2.... 1m on the M9... and .7m on the original M8. 

Jeff

Where can I find that info?

[Mikep996]

Thanks Jeff, good suggestion re diopter lenses; I'll check that out.  Despite not wanting to believe it, I suspect it might solve the problem!

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Where can I find that info?

Lots of places, even the forum FAQ...

Jeff

[Jeff S]

7 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

Thanks Jeff, good suggestion re diopter lenses; I'll check that out.  Despite not wanting to believe it, I suspect it might solve the problem!

I thought my vision, with glasses, was fine.  Then one day I played with some diopters and the +.5 strength (in addition to my glasses) surprisingly made things even more clear.  Rick, an eye doc who used to post here, explained how this was common for aging eyes.  Leica builds in -.5 diopter in the VF.

Jeff

Edited May 15, 2020 by Jeff S

[Anakronox]

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I know I’m probably stating the obvious here, but I too at first had issues with sharp images on my M10 and 50 Summicron.  It turned out to be a twofold problem: I was spoiled by optically stabilized lenses and I just wasn’t used to focusing with a rangefinder.  I learned pretty quickly that I needed to shoot with a higher shutter speed than in my Nikon DSLRs to get a sharp shot.  Not suggesting that you aren’t a competent photographer by any measure, just saying that I was not

[onasj]

Close inspection of your photos suggests to me that your rangefinder is slightly front focusing.  That is, to nail focus you need to turn your lens a tiny bit closer to infinity distance than your rangefinder indicates. You can adjust the rangefinder yourself—search this forum—or you can send it in to Leica.  Getting your rangefinder (and lenses) to all focus exactly can take a while, but when they are spot on you can nail the focus on an eyelash in profile, with good eyesight, and it becomes a joy to use.  Some practice with using the rangefinder can also help.

It’s best to adjust your rangefinder (or have it adjusted) to the Leica M10 standard, to maximize the probability that future lenses  you acquire will focus accurately.

If you are slightly brave and comfortable with some careful planning and the use of a 2 mm hex key you can adjust the RF yourself. 

If you are really (most would say foolishly) brave and comfortable making extremely thin metal shims and carefully filing brass, you can adjust your own lenses—not recommended for most, but it does work and is not brain surgery.  I adjusted a 75 lux myself including removing a flange shim and very carefully re-sloping the brass focusing cam at the near distance region and it is now ~perfect at all distances on both my M10P and M10M.

[Mikep996]

onasj, Thanks, great info!  As one of my "side passions' I restore antique timepieces and have done so for several small museums as well as private individuals so I'm comfortable with small tools/fairly intricate parts.   I'll do a search for the instructions. Not saying I WILL do a any adjustment myaelf but I'd like to at least see the specifics involved.  

Anakronox, I appreciate your observation!  As I've said earlier, I have a lot of experience with Leica M's but until I acquired this M10, it's been almost 15 years since I owned/regularly used one.  Based on two full days of practicing, I can see that my focusing sharpness is improving!  But I did another focus test based on Don at Dag's suggestion and it confirms Onasj's suggestion.   When I rangefinder focused on a tape measure from a 45 degree angle to the tape measure, the point where I focused - which arbitrarily was 48" -  was soft;  46.5 - 47" was the sharpest point.

 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Mikep996 said:

onasj, Thanks, great info!  As one of my "side passions' I restore antique timepieces and have done so for several small museums as well as private individuals so I'm comfortable with small tools/fairly intricate parts.   I'll do a search for the instructions. Not saying I WILL do a any adjustment myaelf but I'd like to at least see the specifics involved.  

 

If you didn’t clearly notice same as onasj, best to address any vision issues first.

As for adjusting for infinity focus, these diagrams and instructions by Julian are legendary here..

Jeff

[mujk]

 

6 hours ago, onasj said:

Close inspection of your photos suggests to me that your rangefinder is slightly front focusing.  That is, to nail focus you need to turn your lens a tiny bit closer to infinity distance than your rangefinder indicates. You can adjust the rangefinder yourself—search this forum—or you can send it in to Leica.  Getting your rangefinder (and lenses) to all focus exactly can take a while, but when they are spot on you can nail the focus on an eyelash in profile, with good eyesight, and it becomes a joy to use.  Some practice with using the rangefinder can also help.

It’s best to adjust your rangefinder (or have it adjusted) to the Leica M10 standard, to maximize the probability that future lenses  you acquire will focus accurately.

If you are slightly brave and comfortable with some careful planning and the use of a 2 mm hex key you can adjust the RF yourself. 

If you are really (most would say foolishly) brave and comfortable making extremely thin metal shims and carefully filing brass, you can adjust your own lenses—not recommended for most, but it does work and is not brain surgery.  I adjusted a 75 lux myself including removing a flange shim and very carefully re-sloping the brass focusing cam at the near distance region and it is now ~perfect at all distances on both my M10P and M10M.

If it's just the infinity focus adjustment that is out of calibration it's easy to adjust yourself. I have done if several times on my M9, which goes out of calibration much easier than the M10. The near focus adjustment (or actually cam follower slope) is more tricky and the two adjustments affect each other. If the same camera calibration doesn't work for all your lenses, you need to start adjusting them individually as onasj has done. I have never dared to try that myself.

[onasj]

7 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

onasj, Thanks, great info!  As one of my "side passions' I restore antique timepieces and have done so for several small museums as well as private individuals so I'm comfortable with small tools/fairly intricate parts.   I'll do a search for the instructions. Not saying I WILL do a any adjustment myaelf but I'd like to at least see the specifics involved.  

Anakronox, I appreciate your observation!  As I've said earlier, I have a lot of experience with Leica M's but until I acquired this M10, it's been almost 15 years since I owned/regularly used one.  Based on two full days of practicing, I can see that my focusing sharpness is improving!  But I did another focus test based on Don at Dag's suggestion and it confirms Onasj's suggestion.   When I rangefinder focused on a tape measure from a 45 degree angle to the tape measure, the point where I focused - which arbitrarily was 48" -  was soft;  46.5 - 47" was the sharpest point.

 

Yes, it looked like ~1.3" of front focus to me on your 6-foot test with the 50/2.  That's significant enough error that most or all your wide-aperture photos will look fuzzy, so you'll want to fix that.  Given your background and your observation that all your lenses are behaving similarly (you should confirm first) I would definitely research how to use a 2 mm hex key to adjust your rangefinder's infinity point.  Basically you slightly turn the 2 mm hex key hole in your rangefinder roller in one direction.  Try, test, and repeat until satisfied.  Small adjustments at a time.  There is a little bit of hysteresis in this adjustment in my experience so you may need to take a few steps in one direction before you see a difference.  The key is to test repeatedly after each adjustment.  The whole thing can take you less than 30 minutes, even going slowly.  Then (important!) check that you can still focus to infinity by shooting the moon or something at least a couple km away.  Finally, check the entire focusing range of all your lenses from minimum distance to infinity.

One write-up:

http://leica.nemeng.com/034b.shtml

Using this approach you can quickly get your camera to be more or less at the Leica standard (visiting a Leica store and trying out all their lenses on your M10 can help!), and in the process identify which lenses might deviate from the standard.  If you are interested in adjusting your lenses yourself, I can give you some pointers on how to do it though I'm sure you will hear—wisely—from most others that you are better off sending it to Leica.  I just find it fun to diagnose and fix things myself

Edited May 16, 2020 by onasj

[Mikep996]

Yep, further work has shown that the rangefinder is definitely out if spec! At infinity (moon), the photo is out of focus unless I come "back" on the focus until there is a slight double (out of focus) image on the rangefinder.  With that the photo is sharp.  OTOH, with a sharp rangefinder image, the pic is quite soft.  Using the live view and focus peaking, all photos are very sharp.

Guess I'll drag out my small hex head kit...

 

[Mikep996]

Adjusted!

Here are a couple of before/after crops from the center of a much larger pic taken from about 20 feet with the 50mm cron.   First one is after adjustment.  Second one is with the viewfinder showing in focus prior to adjustment. After adjustment, the live view focus peak and the viewfinder agree on "focus"!  Thanks all for the excellent advice/info!!!!!  

Funny...now I wonder if back in the day with my Leica M2, then M6, then M7 and doing all my own darkroom work if I was getting the maximum capability of the cameras/lenses.  I didn't realize that rangefinders could:

1. Go out of adjustment or,

2. Come from Leica NOT  precisely adjusted in the first place 

 

Note: I meant to have the pre-adjusted shot first and the adjusted shot second but I uploaded them in the wrong order and couldn't figure out how to change them around after posting.

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Edited May 18, 2020 by Mikep996

[lykaman]

20 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

Adjusted!

Here are a couple of before/after crops from the center of a much larger pic taken from about 20 feet with the 50mm cron.   First one is after adjustment.  Second one is with the viewfinder showing in focus prior to adjustment. After adjustment, the live view focus peak and the viewfinder agree on "focus"!  Thanks all for the excellent advice/info!!!!!  

Funny...now I wonder if back in the day with my Leica M2, then M6, then M7 and doing all my own darkroom work if I was getting the maximum capability of the cameras/lenses.  I didn't realize that rangefinders could:

1. Go out of adjustment or,

2. Come from Leica NOT  precisely adjusted in the first place 

 

Note: I meant to have the pre-adjusted shot first and the adjusted shot second but I uploaded them in the wrong order and couldn't figure out how to change them around after posting.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

To Change the images, go to EDIT - Then scroll down, you can see the images with a Trash logo, delete and reenter at your pleasure//   L  (this only works for a short period after Posting)

[Ryuuenji]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:32 AM, Mikep996 said:

"I'm suspecting that this is a novice with digital 'expectation' problem"

Nah, not really.  I just expect an M10 to be able to deliver sharp photos as my film Leica's did.  But I haven't yet been able to get the rangefinder to deliver the same level of detail as the live view/focus peaking.  Which is why I wonder if it needs calibrating.  The pics I provided don't show much difference because they had to be dramatically reduced in resolution to be posted - from 5900 pixels to 1200.  In the originals, the Liveview pic is REALLY sharp with no processing at all.  Heck, it's even sharper than my iPhone!

As I said earlier, my eyes are 15 years older than they were when my M6 was my primary camera so that MIGHT be part of the rangefinder focusing inconsistency.  I can deal with 'older eyes' if that's the problem.  I can't deal with a malfunctioning camera so I want to be SURE the camera is performing to spec.

From the photos, your RF Calibration is good. I have another suggestion you can try like what I have done. I purchase a Correction Lens II  +1.5 diopter for M10. As long as your eye cannot eye the focusing patch clearly, you will alway miss out a pin point focusing. You have to match the right diopter for your focusing eye. Don’t underestimate what this tiny lens can do. Best to go to a supplier that allows you to try out the various diopter.  Hope it helps.

Edited June 22, 2020 by Ryuuenji

[Jeff S]

37 minutes ago, Ryuuenji said:

From the photos, your RF Calibration is good. I have another suggestion you can try like what I have done. I purchase a Correction Lens II  +1.5 diopter for M10. As long as your eye cannot eye the focusing patch clearly, you will alway miss out a pin point focusing. You have to match the right diopter for your focusing eye. Don’t underestimate what this tiny lens can do. Best to go to a supplier that allows you to try out the various diopter.  Hope it helps.

Discussed above.

Jeff

[oka]

...I did have problems with front focusing but it was related to the focusing technique. For me I get accurate results when I turn the focusing ring counter clockwise and definitely not trying to turn focusing ring back and forth (when using fast lenses).

Regarding the RF calibration on bodies, Ive personally have had 5 M10's (original, P and Monochrome) - only M10M came properly calibrated out of the factory. On my opinion RF calibration issues are the most frustrating part of living with M.

Unless you have multiple lenses and bodies, it's sometimes hard to know if the calibration is needed for the lens, body or is it just user error...

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, oka said:

Unless you have multiple lenses and bodies, it's sometimes hard to know if the calibration is needed for the lens, body or is it just user error...

Not really, if one uses a tripod, careful target setup, and live view vs RF comparison. This will eliminate user errors. A body and a couple of lenses will generally reveal issue(s), if any.   But this is why Leica encourages users to send in body and lenses for calibration, even though they are calibrated independently, as they want to avoid customer guesswork through casual analysis and eliminate the need for back and forth dealings.

Jeff

Edited June 25, 2020 by Jeff S

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[oka]

15 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Not really, if one uses a tripod, careful target setup, and live view vs RF comparison. This will eliminate user errors.

If you have a single body which is slightly front focusing, lens which is slightly back focusing and second lens which has perfect calibration - you might easily end up sending the perfect lens for the service... tripod and live view is not always bulletproof check.