M10 focusing...

[Mikep996]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Hi All!  I was active here years ago but sold all my Leica gear in the early '00's when switching to digital (mostly Nikon since then).  I considered an M8 back around '10 or '11 but just never really warmed to the idea.

I decided to get back into Leica upon reading nice reviews of the M10 over the past couple of years so s few days ago I purchased an M10 on Ebay that looks almost new.   YES, I should have purchased it from a Leica specialist but the price was right so I succumbed to that.  I also bought a 50 Cron, a 90 Elmarit, both circa late 1990's, and a current 28 Elmarit which has not yet arrived.  I have a good bit of previous experience with film Leicas and a wide variety of Leica lenses so using a Leica rangefinder is familiar ground though Leica digital is not.  

Yesterday, upon receiving the M10 I fully charged the battery and went into the backyard to check it out with the 50 and 90.  Frankly, I was appalled at how unsharp the images were with either lens.  I shot with lens detection off and also with it on and the specific lenses selected from the list.  TBH, I feared I had bought a used M10 at a "good" price because the previous owner had decided it was a lemon!  After extensive futzing around,  I discovered if I used the live view/focus peaking, the pics were noticeably sharper than anything I could get using the rangefinder.  Also, more troubling is that it seems erratic - one pic is reasonably sharp and another, with the same settings, is less so.

 I have been bulling my way through the instruction manual but so far don't see anything obvious that I'm doing wrong digitally-speaking (menu settings, etc).  I suppose the issue could be that the rangefinder needs calibration.  I am not personally familiar with the issue, never having had a problem with that on my film Leicas (M2, M6, M7).  I have read that some folks have calibrated rangefinders  themselves.  I'm not afraid to try that, given good instructions,  but I would like to see some specific instructions re the M10 unless it is identical to earlier cameras.  Maybe I'm just missing some obvious issue but frankly, my iPhone 11 takes sharper photographs than this M10, even when using the Live view/focus peaking.   

Appreciate any thought re this -

Thanks!

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[poli]

I am not sure, but it sounds indeed like your camera needs rangefinder calibration. The pictures should be sharp and although the iPhone 11 is not bad, you should definitely see differences in favour of the M10 and not the other way around.... I do not have live view (Leica m10-d), but all pics are really sharp. Never had an issue, als not with a 90mm lens. 

Maybe it took a big bump in transport? Is the housing of the camera all ok? 

Edited May 14, 2020 by poli

[hteasley]

It needs calibration, and the previous owner did not know or tell you.

[Mikep996]

17 minutes ago, hteasley said:

It needs calibration, and the previous owner did not know or tell you.

Well...since I bought it through EBay...I probably got what I deserved.   So where should I send it for calibration - I'm in Texas if that makes any difference.

"Maybe it took a big bump in transport? Is the housing of the camera all ok? "

Yes, the camera could pass for brand new as far as cosmetics.

I just checked and found that the camera's firmware is 2.4.5.0 which is two versions behind the current one - 2.7.5.0.  Can't imagine that makes any difference as far as sharpness is concerned but I'll update the firmware and check it out again.  Do I have to load the firmware sequentially or can go straight to 2750?

Edited May 14, 2020 by Mikep996

[Jeff S]

Just load latest FW. 

Live view should result in excellent focus, especially if tripod mounted to eliminate user interference, AND if your lenses are also well calibrated and without issues (and your vision is corrected).   If not, camera and/or lenses have issue(s).  Leica NJ generally requests sending in the whole kit to avoid customer guesswork and back and forth dealings.

Besides Leica NJ, I’ve had great success using DAG (Don Goldberg) in Wisconsin for camera/lens repair.  

Lesson learned, at least, regarding purchasing source; always a reputable dealer with warranty for me.

Jeff

Edited May 14, 2020 by Jeff S

[Mikep996]

Yeah, re Ebay - I KNOW better but the relatively low price seduced me.  As the old saying goes, "If it's too good too be true..."

I sent a message to Don at DAG and he quickly responded with info to determine whether the camera or lens is at fault.  Since the same issue exists with two lenses, seems pretty likely (as he suggested) that any misfocus is the camera, not the lenses.  I'll do the focus test on a tripod using a tape measure as he suggested and, if that confirms a camera focus error, I'll ship it off to him on Monday.

Thanks for the recommendation.

[Kwesi]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Grab a ruler and and a bottle. Place the bottle 6 feet away and focus with lens wide open on the label using the rangefinder. look at the foot scale for confirmation. it should say 6 feet.

Do the same with live view. repeat for each lens. If live view is correct  each time and rangefinder is off each time then rangefinder needs calibration. 

Hope this helps.

[Mikep996]

Thanks,  I'll do that tomorrow and advise!

[erniethemilk]

14 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Grab a ruler and and a bottle. Place the bottle 6 feet away and focus with lens wide open on the label using the rangefinder. look at the foot scale for confirmation. it should say 6 feet.

Do the same with live view. repeat for each lens. If live view is correct  each time and rangefinder is off each time then rangefinder needs calibration. 

Hope this helps.

Sorry, hope I'm not hijacking the thread here.  My M10-P displays similar characteristics to the OP, where one shot is sharp and the next is not - I think it's simply me not being great with RF focussing.... so I've just tried this with my M10-P & Summicron 50mm f2.  

Attached is a RF focus & Live view focus image.  No processing/sharpening etc done on the image, simply re-sized to 2000 long on PS.

I'd be interested to know if this is as one would expect from f2 Summicron wide open at 6' (checked the lens scale and it showed 6 feet).

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Kwesi]

23 minutes ago, erniethemilk said:

Sorry, hope I'm not hijacking the thread here.  My M10-P displays similar characteristics to the OP, where one shot is sharp and the next is not - I think it's simply me not being great with RF focussing.... so I've just tried this with my M10-P & Summicron 50mm f2.  

Attached is a RF focus & Live view focus image.  No processing/sharpening etc done on the image, simply re-sized to 2000 long on PS.

I'd be interested to know if this is as one would expect from f2 Summicron wide open at 6' (checked the lens scale and it showed 6 feet).

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Hi Erniethemilk,

Based on the shots above I would say that your camera and lens are spot on.

The trick with rangefinder focusing is don't go back and forth too much, your eye gets tired quickly and you start second guessing yourself. Simply bring the 2 images together and stop.

[erniethemilk]

4 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Hi Erniethemilk,

Based on the shots above I would say that your camera and lens are spot on.

The trick with rangefinder focusing is don't go back and forth too much, your eye gets tired quickly and you start second guessing yourself. Simply bring the 2 images together and stop.

Thanks for the quick reply... that's great to hear! So, I definitely need to work harder on the manual focussing

Just tried the same with my Summicron 40mm f2 and surprisingly the results are very similar... if anything the lens maybe even a tad sharper than the 50.  Not bad for a Leica lens I picked up for just over £200 here in the UK.  A fifth of the cost of my 50mm f2 v5.

[Kwesi]

Glad to hear it!  You can't go wrong with the Summicron-C its a dynamite lens. The 90/4 -C is another great value, tiny, sharp and much better contrast than the tele-elmarit. its only drawback is the f4 max aperture but hey, its cheap as chips.

[Tom Johnston]

Do keep us posted when your camera gets back. If you send in lenses, consider having 6-bit mounts installed if they aren’t already.

[Mikep996]

 

I did essentially the same test this morning with the bottle 6 ft from the frame line on the camera.  First pic with lens "focused" via the rangefinder, 2nd pic with lens set at 6 ft and the third using live view/peak focusing.  In the originals (not downsized for the site), the live view is sharp enough to cut yourself on!  In these three posted images there is not much difference but at actual size from the camera there is a noticeable difference in each - rangefinder is a bit soft, 6 ft setting on lens is sharper, Live view is brutally sharp!

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited May 15, 2020 by Mikep996

[Jeff S]

23 hours ago, Mikep996 said:

Maybe I'm just missing some obvious issue but frankly, my iPhone 11 takes sharper photographs than this M10, even when using the Live view/focus peaking.   

 

So the issue you were apparently missing, at least with LV, was careful execution. Good to know the sensor isn’t misaligned, or some other dramatic problem with body or lens.

Jeff

Edited May 15, 2020 by Jeff S

[erniethemilk]

3 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Glad to hear it!  You can't go wrong with the Summicron-C its a dynamite lens. The 90/4 -C is another great value, tiny, sharp and much better contrast than the tele-elmarit. its only drawback is the f4 max aperture but hey, its cheap as chips.

Is that the Leica 90mm F4 Elmar C?  Been thinking about a 90mm and maybe a 28mm just to round off the set. 

[250swb]

On 5/14/2020 at 4:17 PM, Mikep996 said:

 I considered an M8 back around '10 or '11 but just never really warmed to I have read that some folks have calibrated rangefinders  themselves.  I'm not afraid to try that, given good instructions,  but I would like to see some specific instructions re the M10 unless it is identical to earlier cameras.  Maybe I'm just missing some obvious issue but frankly, my iPhone 11 takes sharper photographs than this M10, even when using the Live view/focus peaking.   

Appreciate any thought re this -

Thanks!

There is a MASSIVE difference between the amount of help your iPhone gives you compared with the default values of an M10. The iPhone makes you look like a great photographer, the M10 file requires you to be a great photographer. I'm suspecting that this is a novice with digital 'expectation' problem and not an intrinsic 'wave your arms around in the air like a school girl and send it back to Leica' problem.

Edited May 15, 2020 by 250swb

[Mikep996]

43 minutes ago, 250swb said:

There is a MASSIVE difference between the amount of help your iPhone gives you compared with the default values of an M10. The iPhone makes you look like a great photographer, the M10 file requires you to be a great photographer. I'm suspecting that this is a novice with digital 'expectation' problem and not an intrinsic 'wave your arms around in the air like a school girl and send it back to Leica' problem.

"I'm suspecting that this is a novice with digital 'expectation' problem"

Nah, not really.  I just expect an M10 to be able to deliver sharp photos as my film Leica's did.  But I haven't yet been able to get the rangefinder to deliver the same level of detail as the live view/focus peaking.  Which is why I wonder if it needs calibrating.  The pics I provided don't show much difference because they had to be dramatically reduced in resolution to be posted - from 5900 pixels to 1200.  In the originals, the Liveview pic is REALLY sharp with no processing at all.  Heck, it's even sharper than my iPhone!

As I said earlier, my eyes are 15 years older than they were when my M6 was my primary camera so that MIGHT be part of the rangefinder focusing inconsistency.  I can deal with 'older eyes' if that's the problem.  I can't deal with a malfunctioning camera so I want to be SURE the camera is performing to spec.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Kwesi]

3 hours ago, erniethemilk said:

Is that the Leica 90mm F4 Elmar C?  Been thinking about a 90mm and maybe a 28mm just to round off the set. 

The very one. Its tiny enough to leave in your bag till needed. Although i would be remiss if i didn't suggest the 90/2.4 Summarit. for the money, you can't do better.

[Jeff S]

37 minutes ago, Mikep996 said:

"I'm suspecting that this is a novice with digital 'expectation' problem"

Nah, not really.  I just expect an M10 to be able to deliver sharp photos as my film Leica's did.  But I haven't yet been able to get the rangefinder to deliver the same level of detail as the live view/focus peaking.  Which is why I wonder if it needs calibrating.  The pics I provided don't show much difference because they had to be dramatically reduced in resolution to be posted - from 5900 pixels to 1200.  In the originals, the Liveview pic is REALLY sharp with no processing at all.  Heck, it's even sharper than my iPhone!

As I said earlier, my eyes are 15 years older than they were when my M6 was my primary camera so that MIGHT be part of the rangefinder focusing inconsistency.  I can deal with 'older eyes' if that's the problem.  I can't deal with a malfunctioning camera so I want to be SURE the camera is performing to spec.

Be sure your eyes are corrected for any astigmatism and, of course, distance.  The focus patch is set at a virtual distance of 2m.  I wear glasses that correct for both issues, but as I’ve gotten closer to 70, I have I benefited from an additional +.5 diopter.  You can order diopters from a good dealer to try, and send back any that don’t help.  Or, as I did, use free trial diopters at a local optician before ordering.

After that, if still a problem, send to DAG.

Jeff

Edited May 15, 2020 by Jeff S