Nokton 35mm 1.4 comparison between ver I and II

[Harpomatic]

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Hi everyone, I thought it might be of interest for some of you:

I just published on my new blog a comparison between the old and new versions of the Nokton 35mm 1.4, including focus shift and image rendition differences (there are some).

This is not a plug for my website because it just got online last week and there is no advertising - this is just work of passion!

Please let me know what you think!

Edit: because I am a bit of an idiot, I forgot to add the link...thanks Kwesi for pointing that out!

Here it is: https://www.47-degree.com/focus-shift

Edited May 12, 2020 by Harpomatic
Forgot the link!

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[Kwesi]

Link, please😀

[Harpomatic]

What a moron I am! 🤣

Here it is!

https://www.47-degree.com/focus-shift

 

[Kwesi]

No Worries!

I really found your comparison shots to be really helpful in showing the differences between the two lenses. Love your street photography - still chuckling at "simply the best soft"...

Also its unusual to see someone who is so comfortable at composing vertically. Thanks for sharing the link.

[Harpomatic]

3 hours ago, Kwesi said:

No Worries!

I really found your comparison shots to be really helpful in showing the differences between the two lenses. Love your street photography - still chuckling at "simply the best soft"...

Also its unusual to see someone who is so comfortable at composing vertically. Thanks for sharing the link.

Thank you, I really appreciate it!

I was hoping to create a useful resource with the comparison shots, I’m happy to hear you found them useful!

[DwF]

Nicely done and useful review, thank you! I get that in spite of improvements, one could be very content to stay with v1....purple fringing notwithstanding

David

[250swb]

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An excellent review and some very nice accompanying photos. I have the V1 SC version (love the 'glow') but I do use it with the Visoflex on digital to overcome the focus shift.

[adan]

Pretty good report.

For me, the issue of focus shift rarely occurs. Because I tend to use lenses at their maximum aperture (for narrow DoF effect, or in low light, for higher shutter speed) or well-stopped down.

I've never seen much purpose in using a lens "slightly" stopped down. Although the Nokton 35 v.1 is sort of the exception that proves the rule. For me it is mostly an f/2 or f/8 lens - I never use f/1.4 (too dreamy) nor f/2.8-4-5.6 (why?). And my copy's focus is correct at f/2.0. Thus its focus-shift is mostly something that only happens to other people.

[Harpomatic]

1 hour ago, adan said:

I never use f/1.4 (too dreamy) nor f/2.8-4-5.6 (why?)

I’m not sure what you mean by that: surely there are situations where you have to juggle the settings to get the best image quality but needing a certain shutter speed and at least a certain amount of DOF in changing light? I find myself using all available f-stops according to my needs! For example street shooting with zone focusing in dimmer light: F8 goes rapidly out of the window! There comes the need for F4 or F5.6! Or night/dusk shooting where I need a bit more DOF? F2 or F2.8 are really useful!

 

1 hour ago, adan said:

Pretty good report.

Thanks!

[adan]

12 hours ago, Harpomatic said:

I’m not sure what you mean by that: surely there are situations where you have to juggle the settings to get the best image quality but needing a certain shutter speed and at least a certain amount of DOF in changing light?

The exact, precise "certain amount" of DoF is simply far, far down on the list of what I think makes a great Leica-M photograph - both for myself, and looking at great Leica-M pictures historically. So no, I am rarely juggling settings - it is a great way to miss more important stuff. No one ever won a Pulitzer or News Photographer of the Year for "most perfect DoF." Or even "Best Image Quality." Nor, as I've discovered, do those necessarily make for better print sales.

"Oh, this picture would have been so much better had I shot at f/2.8 instead of f/2.2 or f/4.5 (or vice-versa)" just doesn't register with me. The difference (especially with a 35mm ) is simply not worth the distraction. It was exactly and precisely when I quit worrying about that sort of stuff that my photography career really took off, as a moment-gatherer, documentarian and journalist.

I focus on the important thing - the subject and its human gestures, expressions and moments. I get those sharp. The unimportant parts of the picture can do whatever they want, as modulated by the light, the focal length, and the need for a given shutter speed.

see further:

 

[Harpomatic]

Thanks for your reply Adan. I have to say, I don’t fiddle with small nuances of settings, if lenses only had full stops for aperture I’d be happier. But I find important to get the best out of camera result to be able to...swear less during editing. And I think at times thos intermediate settings are necessary to get what I want. Take this picture:

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I shot it with the Nokton 35mm 1.4 II at 1/250, ISO 2000, F2.8.

I carefully selected aperture and shutter speed to achieve this, to get better context, sharp subject and little motion. I didn’t want to blur the foreground too much and I wanted good sharpness on the face. But having set the camera I kept it at that setting for the full 30 minutes it took me to get it right, while also shooting different frames and people around the event. I never was hindered by the time it took me to set the camera (10 seconds including the reference frame to check exposure). ISO 2000 was chosen by the camera.

But each of us work in a slightly different manner! And I haven’t been published...

5 hours ago, adan said:

a great Leica-M photograph

Could you elaborate on what a Leica M photograph is? For me the Leica M is a tool I chose because I like the process of crafting the image With it, not because I think it takes images that are any better than many systems out there. Granted, I love the DNGs that come out of it (I have  an M240P) because I barely touch them oftentimes - they are almost finished files, I just do the dodging/burning and small adjustments to them.

[adan]

For me, the greatest photographs are those that can't be crafted over 30 minutes. They capture a moment that exists in the world for one second or a few seconds, never to be seen again. That moment is the subject.

They aren't exclusively the territory of Leicas (or perhaps I should have said "rangefinders," Leica-M just being the archetype of that class).

But all cameras have vices and virtues. The vices of RFs include poor visualization of DoF (everything looks sharp regardless of the aperture or lens being used), and framing that is rather approximate, both around the edges, and between internal parts of the subject (parallax between the finder and the lens).

I make virtues of the rangefinder's vices - I ignore those things it cannot do as well, and focus on what it can do well (or better). Capture a moment right now, with no delay for AF or other mechanisms, no finder blackout at the critical moment, and so on.

If one looks through the works of great Leica users (those who have entered the world's permanent photographic archives of museums and publications), it is rare to see DoF that is "carefully crafted." It is usually "whatever the lens produced at whatever aperture the light and shutter speed demanded."

Look up Tony Ray-Jones, Constantine Manos (Greek Portfolio and The Bostonians), HC-B's People of Moscow. If Paul Fusco wanted to play with DoF, he changed lenses - a 21 f/3.4 here, a 180mm f/2.8 there: https://www.magnumphotos.com/newsroom/politics/la-causa-the-california-grape-strike/

I don't claim to be in that class (yet) but one does have to have a goal.

In these 35mm pictures (shot at "f/8 (or f/2) - and be there") I don't see where missing the moment to juggle with the aperture and DoF would have improved their effectiveness.

Paris, 2013, M9, 35 Summicron-M

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[Dennis]

13 minutes ago, adan said:

I make virtues of the rangefinder's vices - I ignore those things it cannot do as well, and focus on what it can do well (or better). Capture a moment right now, with no delay for AF or other mechanisms, no finder blackout at the critical moment, and so on.

oh yeah! 🙌

13 minutes ago, adan said:

In these 35mm pictures (shot at "f/8 (or f/2) - and be there") I don't see where missing the moment to juggle with the aperture and DoF would have improved their effectiveness.

Totally agree! You have two settings, i have three, but it's the same S _ _ T

My basic f/stop and starting point is most of the times f/5.6 ... If I need more DOP, two stops more and voila: f/11 ... If I need less DOP, two stops down and voila: f/2.8

[Harpomatic]

 

On 5/14/2020 at 6:40 PM, adan said:

For me, the greatest photographs are those that can't be crafted over 30 minutes. They capture a moment that exists in the world for one second or a few seconds, never to be seen again. That moment is the subject.

They aren't exclusively the territory of Leicas (or perhaps I should have said "rangefinders," Leica-M just being the archetype of that class).

But all cameras have vices and virtues. The vices of RFs include poor visualization of DoF (everything looks sharp regardless of the aperture or lens being used), and framing that is rather approximate, both around the edges, and between internal parts of the subject (parallax between the finder and the lens).

I make virtues of the rangefinder's vices - I ignore those things it cannot do as well, and focus on what it can do well (or better). Capture a moment right now, with no delay for AF or other mechanisms, no finder blackout at the critical moment, and so on.

I don't buy the notion that the "decisive moment" is the only good photograph. Leica are as good at that as many other cameras, and actually much more limited in capabilities than every other brand. Their simplicity and the fact that you have to craft the image is what drew me to the brand. And the fact that there is no other digital rangefinder. Having owned the Fuji X-Pro 1 and 2 before I was familiar with and using pre-focusing techniques and there was no blackout or delay certainly in taking the picture: I was using the optical viewfinder (no reason to get that camera otherwise in my opinion). Leica has history and legacy, and is stubbornly living in the past with the Leica M camera, but I like it like that. Let's not make it more than it is though, the camera doesn't make the picture and the equipment available nowadays from other brands is astoundingly capable. Thinking of slightly blurred and "fleeting moment" photographs, Don McCullin's Vietnam war photos were taken with a Nikon F SLR camera: it doesn't look like he was missing moments or needed a Leica to get those moments!

It's the same with the lenses: Leica lenses are mostly very good, but most other brands also have stunning lenses as capable as or better than Leica, and they have for a long time. I tend to dislike brand fanaticism, and I see  lot of it all over the Leica community - luckily there are as many objective people in the same community, and I think you are one of them. We use o the tools we choose not for status symbol but because we like using them and they inspire us - they are better suited to our own style, they are not inherently better. 

The claim that the greatest photographs are those that can't be crafted over 30 minutes is one I can't agree upon: keeping within Magnum as a resource, let's have a look at the book Magnum Contact Sheets: according to your statement most pictures in there are not great because it took work and time to get them! I appreciate that you did say it's your opinion, but I find it a bit absolutist, and it doesn't sound right to me.

I hope this becomes a constructive discussion and nobody gets on a high horse because I'm not worshipping Leica as the be all end all!!😉

[Dennis]

I think that you both are trying to say "almost" the same, but using a different approach and "mood," let's say. A great photographer should be able to take a great picture with a DSRL, Mirrorless, iPhone, Ricoh, Leica, or whatever. It's all about what the final photo makes us feel, and the process we enjoy while we are scouting/thinking/deciding/clicking. And editing.
Some of my favorite pictures are snapshots, I felt something, and I click. Instinct. But others are the work of more than 10 minutes waiting and waiting, framing, and composing the same scene until it was the time to click. Or a result of the best shot between 30-50 frame, because I was not comfortable with a mediocre image, or a 90% execution. It's very subjectively.

About gear, on the other hand, I feel so comfortable shooting a wedding or an event with my Nikon D5. But I recently tried doing with an M10 and one 28 lens, and I enjoyed it a lot. I felt happy with the result. But my mindset, the approach, and the workflow were entirely different. 

   

[adan]

Hey, so far as I'm concerned, you asked me two questions, and I answered them.

I used Nikon and occasionally Canon and Contax SLRs for many, many years.

Once they abandoned split-image focusing (or went out of business), and their pro cameras blimped up to larger and heavier than most of my medium-format gear, they abandoned me as a customer. So I looked around for who still made (in 2001) something as simple and effective and reliable and generally compact as my old plain-prism Nikon F's - and Leica rangefinders happened to be the only thing that still filled the bill (including having manual split-image focusing).

I am a happy user of a C/V 35 Nokton v.1 - which is why I got involved in this thread at all.

Somehow I don't think that history makes me a Leica worshipper.

 

[Harpomatic]

5 hours ago, adan said:

Somehow I don't think that history makes me a Leica worshipper.

I had hoped to be clear in pointing out that I do consider you one of the objective contributors to the forum, and thus I wasn’t labelling you as a Leica worshipper. You are more of a walking encyclopaedia! You always contribute interest and useful insights and information. 

It was actually quite surprising for me to hear of your approach to camera settings, and I had not read the thread you linked above — many people seem to do so.

11 hours ago, Dennis said:

 

I think that you both are trying to say "almost" the same

 

Thanks for trying to mediate! My intention certainly wasn’t to engage in an argument, I was just interested in a constructive discussion.

[Ko.Fe.]

On 5/13/2020 at 11:13 AM, adan said:

Pretty good report.

For me, the issue of focus shift rarely occurs. Because I tend to use lenses at their maximum aperture (for narrow DoF effect, or in low light, for higher shutter speed) or well-stopped down.

I've never seen much purpose in using a lens "slightly" stopped down. Although the Nokton 35 v.1 is sort of the exception that proves the rule. For me it is mostly an f/2 or f/8 lens - I never use f/1.4 (too dreamy) nor f/2.8-4-5.6 (why?). And my copy's focus is correct at f/2.0. Thus its focus-shift is mostly something that only happens to other people.

Some copies of original Nokton 35 1.4 were reported to have bad focus shifts even at f8. I have seen it reported at another forums. Repair didn't helped. 

To me f5.6 is sweet spot with any lens. Sharp enough, but some air in the rendering :). 

My Nokton 35 1.4 II isn't as dreamy wide open as Canadian Lux. It is absolutely usable lens @f1.4. As long as focus is in the middle.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[evikne]

Here is another shot with Nokton 35/1.4 II MC @ f/1.4. I think it's fully usable also when focus is recomposed out from the center. I couldn't done this with the 35 Summilux pre-ASPH. But I still cannot decide if I like it or not. It can never be a "real" Mandler lens, after all.

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[a5m]

20 hours ago, evikne said:

But I still cannot decide if I like it or not. It can never be a "real" Mandler lens, after all.

Knowing this, you probably won’t ever fully get along with the lens regardless. In my experience I’ve come to the realization I prefer native Leica glass. Whether or not that’s objective or even practical is another matter...