What's next for Leica APS-C cameras?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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15 hours ago, DanielJr said:

I've been wondering where will Leica will go from here on out. I refuse to buy the CL because I was sure they were going to stick with TL design and add a EVF. The CL is ugly to me. I would love a Foven Leica TL3. 

 

14 hours ago, DanielJr said:

You never know we are the buyers. You don't think we have voice in their decision making process. 

'We' do not usually know what e.g., the EVF and sensor designers / manufacturers are developing and trying to persuade Leica to incorporate into their future cameras. Those camera designs are not created overnight … they can take several years from the initial 'idea' to reach prototype stage. Leica does 'listen' but what we might want now could already be obsolete compared to what's already been 'on the drawing board' for several years. 

To date, only Sigma has manufactured Foveon sensor cameras and they're not everyone's 'cuppa tea' … even though they have some advantages over Bayer sensors. Leica digital cameras have always been niche products and using a Foveon sensor could be risky. 

The first APS-C Foveon sensor 'L mount' camera will likely be made by Sigma rather than Leica. If and when it arrives, all L mount lenses (including  Leica) will be compatible … and you'll be able to use your TL lenses with it. If Sigma does have an L mount  APS-C Foveon sensor camera up its sleeve, it's likely been in development for several years, i.e., prior to the September 2018 'official' L mount alliance announcement. 

dunk

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Made by Audi?  You are a bit confused...  Audi, like Porsche Design, provides many industrial companies with design services. They are responsible for the esthetics (or lack thereof  of the Leica C and M9 Titanium. But they do not make cameras, I can assure you.
 Of course Leica will use outside design services. Not only for esthetics. The production line for the Summarit lenses was evolved with Porsche.
I cannot agree that the TL cameras are cheaply made - I find rather the opposite. Compared to my Macbooks they dent less and they do not shed little screws...

Yes the design was made by Audi design. That’s exactly what I said. 
 

- If you mismatch the hole of strap connectors ejections, you will see how easy to chew into the aluminium with a simple clip... 
- There are non perfectly aligned gap around the lens release button and the lens mount. Showing a rather unsavoury hole. Making it a potential point of entry for dust, directly on the sensor. 
- The bare grip is incredibly slippery. 
- The snap-on over, are stupid. It requires to remove the strap and the lens ! Just to get access to the SD card ! How crazy is that ? 
- Then the leather case needs to be remove to access battery and SD card.... Be ready to find a coin to do so. 
- The strap is certainly the most stupid of them all. Sticker than most super glue. 
- The built in flash was OK. But they remove it from TL2. What a bummer. 
- The screen is way too small to compete with smartphones
- Touch interface has its goods and bads. 
- External Visoflex is way to big and cumbersome  

For all these reasons, it shows that non photographer designers create the T lineup. And they made a terrible work about it.
Please let the real men and women do it instead. 
 

 

 

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[jaapv]

Well, it is a camera aimed at casual use, so most of your negatives are positives or irrelevancies for the target customer group. I would say that the design is spot-on for the purpose of the camera. I don’t feel that the screen is too small in actual use and I don’t see your gap on my TL. I agree that the Visoflez spoils the camera, but I feel no need to use it and I never use cases. I agree that the strap is silly, form over function, but I have no problem attaching a Peak Design one. Your post only proves that you are not in the intended customer group. As I said, the CL as my photographic tool, the TL as a casual grab-it camera. Perfectly complementary for me. BTW, is having to remove the CL handgrip to get at the battery and SD card the pinnacle of ergonomics? I think not. 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Yes the design was made by Audi design. That’s exactly what I said. 
 

- If you mismatch the hole of strap connectors ejections, you will see how easy to chew into the aluminium with a simple clip... Never happened to me
- There are non perfectly aligned gap around the lens release button and the lens mount. Showing a rather unsavoury hole. Making it a potential point of entry for dust, directly on the sensor. Never noticed it
- The bare grip is incredibly slippery. Not in my hands
- The snap-on over, are stupid. It requires to remove the strap and the lens ! Just to get access to the SD card ! How crazy is that ? Don't buy it - I never did and never missed it.
- Then the leather case needs to be remove to access battery and SD card.... Be ready to find a coin to do so.  Ditto
- The strap is certainly the most stupid of them all. Sticker than most super glue. Then don't use it. I never did. It's not integral to the camera design, like every other strap
- The built in flash was OK. But they remove it from TL2. What a bummer. Yes, when no other Leica camera has one
- The screen is way too small to compete with smartphones A smartphone is a smartphone. This is a camera. It is large, as cameras go
- Touch interface has its goods and bads. I liked it - a personal matter
- External Visoflex is way to big and cumbersome  Yes, as it is on other Leica cameras. It's not a TL thing

For all these reasons, it shows that non photographer designers create the T lineup. And they made a terrible work about it.
Please let the real men and women do it instead. 
 

 

 

I understand - you don't like it and therefore it is a terrible design!

Edit. I sold my TL2 because of its functionality, not its design. I replaced it with a Sigma fp which is a similar size, far more capable, but uglier and an interface similar to the latest Leicas but less touch-oriented.

Edited April 14, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[FrozenInTime]

Useful features of the TL2 not carried over to the CL :

MF distance scale with AF lenses.

USB-C charging

32GB Internal memory

[Yuhau]

I would love for Sigma to develop a SD Quattro H for L mount with the bigger APSC version of the Foven sensor. 

There is  no need for Sigma to be competing in the crowded  FF arena. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Yuhau
typo

[jaapv]

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1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Useful features of the TL2 not carried over to the CL :

MF distance scale with AF lenses.

USB-C charging

32GB Internal memory

I don't get the usefulness of a distance scale in a camera with an EVF, especially the atrophied scales as implemented in digital viewfinders and on LCDs. But that may be just me.

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I understand - you don't like it and therefore it is a terrible design!

Edit. I sold my TL2 because of its functionality, not its design. I replaced it with a Sigma fp which is a similar size, far more capable, but uglier and an interface similar to the latest Leicas but less touch-oriented.

Not at all. 
It is a terrible design because of certain flaws. You can check by yourself my complaints. I was shocked by them. That’s all and I tried to be honest.
And of course I am used to Apple products. 
Apple is used to CNC aluminium, and produce in China, through its partner, beautifully crafted machines. 
However Leica did not made such good job with its T. 

I really like the T look. But in retrospect. So many flaws, such like its slowness is a no go for me. I also tried to like it for its qualities. But in the end, its defaults are to numerous to forget. In the end I cannot get rid of it fast enough. 

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Useful features of the TL2 not carried over to the CL :

MF distance scale with AF lenses.

USB-C charging

32GB Internal memory

From what I understand. TL camera line OS is completely different from Q/SL/M10/CL/Q2/SL2 common OS. 

Therefore bringing functions from TL2 to CL and vice versa is quite difficult. Hence the weird difference in functionality between the two cameras. 
So I guess that we will never see the super clever digital scale in CL. 

Just like we will never see the picture in picture manual focusing magnification window of X cameras into CL either. 
 

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Not at all. 
It is a terrible design because of certain flaws. You can check by yourself my complaints. I was shocked by them. That’s all and I tried to be honest.
And of course I am used to Apple products. 
Apple is used to CNC aluminium, and produce in China, through its partner, beautifully crafted machines. 
However Leica did not made such good job with its T. 

I really like the T look. But in retrospect. So many flaws, such like its slowness is a no go for me. I also tried to like it for its qualities. But in the end, its defaults are to numerous to forget. In the end I cannot get rid of it fast enough. 

I did check your complaints, and responded to them, in red, in the quoted section - see my post #24.
I am used to Apple products as well - they also have their flaws, in design and manufacture.

Edited April 14, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[Ko.Fe.]

18 hours ago, Digitom said:

Well, I do not think so. Let me say "little" 🙂.  If many people dislike a special design and refuse it Leica will sure not go on a one way street. I think they look very carefully about the features and design. Because it is - compared to others - a very small company. If a camera is not successful, or widely not accepted, it can be a problem for Leica.

So they sure hear what the users are talking about, but they also know that a taste can change quickly. The evolute more then revolute^^

Only one thing they will - IMHO - never ever do: bring something out with possibility to ust M lenses and focussing with Focus peaking, no crop, no adapter, I mean an M without Rangefinder. That woul cannibalize the M System. Today when you wanna stay in the lica universe, and use M lenses without any compromize you have to live with rangefinder camera - the M.

If someone does not like (like me) rangefinders and likes more focus peaking with an EVF built in, you have to ue SL or -if wanna be small- the CL. And accept other negatives (bulky or crop).
 

If you need to stick with only one label, then it is as you described.

Some have no problems with using of non Leica lenses on Leica M. Also, if here is LTM to M adapter, why it should be a problem with M to FE? Nor many have problems with Sony and Nikon FF EVF cameras and Leica lenses. Sony FF EFV is small, supports AF with rangefinder lenses and have normal rendering in later models.

Leica M system already been cannibalized by Sony A7 system. Few years ago if I would google RF lens, reviews will be mostly on Leica M. Now Goggle returns reviews on Sony A7 cameras.  If it is CMOS and EVF, here is no point to overpay for Leica. From practical reasons.

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I understand - you don't like it and therefore it is a terrible design!

Edit. I sold my TL2 because of its functionality, not its design. I replaced it with a Sigma fp which is a similar size, far more capable, but uglier and an interface similar to the latest Leicas but less touch-oriented.

I've been searching for that "hole in the camera" just now  and was unable to find it...🙄 Couldn't find any dents either. It happened to have a 1.7 kg lens on as well and guess what? It did not slip from my hands...

[robgo2]

13 hours ago, M10 for me said:

I love the CL design. I actually strongly believe in a CL2. How do I know? I especialy wrote that I "believe". Not to create more misunderstanding.

On the other hand the CL is a very expensive camera (too expensive). its not competitive in the APS-C market. I assume that it is often bought together with a Hermes bag (always wear a camera). Its not an M and not a Q. Possibly the corona sets an end to it.

Oh, crap, I forgot to get the Hermes bag with my CL. 🤑

You are right that the CL is priced much higher than other APS-C cameras on the market, but that is true of all Leica cameras and lenses in their respective categories. That said, the ergonomics of the CL are far above the pack, which is worth something to many of us. Also, the CL is the only APS-C camera (other than the TL) that can use the autofocus Summilux-TL 35, Summicron-TL 23 and APO-Macro-Elmarit-TL 60. What other APS-C system can match them? Finally, I find that the IQ from the CL is right up there with my FF SL and Q.

I am very fortunate to be able to afford such expensive gear.  If I could not, I would probably be in Sonyland, which would be fine too. In the past I used Sony FF cameras and an RX1, which gave me some great images, but my Leica kit gives me far more enjoyment.

Edited April 14, 2020 by robgo2

[Digitom]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Ko.Fe.:

If you need to stick with only one label, then it is as you described.

Some have no problems with using of non Leica lenses on Leica M. Also, if here is LTM to M adapter, why it should be a problem with M to FE? Nor many have problems with Sony and Nikon FF EVF cameras and Leica lenses. Sony FF EFV is small, supports AF with rangefinder lenses and have normal rendering in later models.

Leica M system already been cannibalized by Sony A7 system. Few years ago if I would google RF lens, reviews will be mostly on Leica M. Now Goggle returns reviews on Sony A7 cameras.  If it is CMOS and EVF, here is no point to overpay for Leica. From practical reasons.

Of course one can use any cam with Leica Lenses if they can be adapted. But the theme of this thread was about LEICA Cameras. And I really don´t believe that the M System is really cannibalised by SONY! You compare 2 things better not to be compared. Many years ago there was the Leica CL analog Model in cooperation with Minolta and Leica stopped selling it after about 3 years. Sure there were many people that time thinking about a low budget M with M Mount and bought a Leica CL analog (even the rangefinder was not useable with most of the M lenses due to missing frame lines, I know all about that) but I think they want to "protect" the M System, which is the Core Competence of Leica - the bodies, the lenses of course. And so I think they will never bring a "modern M" to the market, means an M without Rangefinder...and if they would do, THEN they get in the battle with the other systems you mentioned, e.g. SONY. That could be very hard for Leica, because the price then will be the killer argument for many users. They prefer to save money to buy a Leica lens, and spend less money into the non-Leica body. The M System is outstanding, a kind of "unique" (also I know there are other rangefinder cams on the market, but IMHO: forget them). And Leicas success is to protect this core competence - the M rangefinder camrea - as long they can do.

So finally we have to buy either a bulky SL to have a fullformat non-rangefinder body or a small APS-C CL-Body with a crop of 1.5 - when to stay in the Leica Universe. Thats it 🙂

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by Digitom

[lct]

17 minutes ago, Digitom said:

And so I think they will never bring a "modern M" to the market, means an M without Rangefinder...and if they would do, THEN they get in the battle with the other systems you mentioned, e.g. SONY. That could be very hard for Leica, because the price then will be the killer argument for many users

Hard to use M lenses on Sony bodies w/o sensor modification and even then (i have a Kolari mod a7s) i miss the auto zoom feature of my M240. An M body with built-in EVF would give me that and there would be no battle with Sony whose stock bodies cannot compete anyway. 

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, Digitom said:

And I really don´t believe that the M System is really cannibalised by SONY!

 

It’s not - what you’re seeing is SEO (Search Engine Optimization) in play by Sony’s digital agency. They see a cheap way by paying for search terms to pick off a few uncertain FF buyers who like the idea of a Leica. Using SEO Sony gets to be the first FF brand they see, not the second.

[Ko.Fe.]

3 hours ago, Digitom said:

Of course one can use any cam with Leica Lenses if they can be adapted. But the theme of this thread was about LEICA Cameras. And I really don´t believe that the M System is really cannibalised by SONY! You compare 2 things better not to be compared. Many years ago there was the Leica CL analog Model in cooperation with Minolta and Leica stopped selling it after about 3 years. Sure there were many people that time thinking about a low budget M with M Mount and bought a Leica CL analog (even the rangefinder was not useable with most of the M lenses due to missing frame lines, I know all about that) but I think they want to "protect" the M System, which is the Core Competence of Leica - the bodies, the lenses of course. And so I think they will never bring a "modern M" to the market, means an M without Rangefinder...and if they would do, THEN they get in the battle with the other systems you mentioned, e.g. SONY. That could be very hard for Leica, because the price then will be the killer argument for many users. They prefer to save money to buy a Leica lens, and spend less money into the non-Leica body. The M System is outstanding, a kind of "unique" (also I know there are other rangefinder cams on the market, but IMHO: forget them). And Leicas success is to protect this core competence - the M rangefinder camrea - as long they can do.

So finally we have to buy either a bulky SL to have a fullformat non-rangefinder body or a small APS-C CL-Body with a crop of 1.5 - when to stay in the Leica Universe. Thats it 🙂

 

It wasn't me to say here what M without RF, but EVF is good idea. To me Leica is only good because it still has M with OVF and RF. I have it because of it. Everything else, Leica is behind or at least nothing special, IMO. Except, Leica label and nice exterior design.   Any Leica is very nice to have. But. Personally, I see zero reasons to buy just because of the label and nice design. I'm taking pictures for final results, which are labels free.

And if google returns more results for M lenses tests, reviews on Sony instead of Leica it is something what is happening for real. At least among reviewers, bloggers, vloggers  

[Le Chef]

26 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

And if google returns more results for M lenses tests, reviews on Sony instead of Leica it is something what is happening for real. At least among reviewers, bloggers, vloggers  

It is if you are prepared to pay to boost your search results. That’s the reality of the way the world works these days.

[Digitom]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Ko.Fe.:

It wasn't me to say here what M without RF, but EVF is good idea. To me Leica is only good because it still has M with OVF and RF. I have it because of it. Everything else, Leica is behind or at least nothing special, IMO. Except, Leica label and nice exterior design.   Any Leica is very nice to have. But. Personally, I see zero reasons to buy just because of the label and nice design. I'm taking pictures for final results, which are labels free.

And if google returns more results for M lenses tests, reviews on Sony instead of Leica it is something what is happening for real. At least among reviewers, bloggers, vloggers  

Of course the camera is only a tool, I agree with you. I had other cameras before, also in the "analog aera" and I liked them. I bought my 1st Leica more "by accident", it was - do not laugh - a Digilux Zoom, today a very funny design and also not so good quality of course...but my real 1st love was the Digilux2 which I think is a very good camera in its time. The JPGs from that cam were so special in color and style, until today I like them...From that time I began to love reddot cameras.

Look, I think cameras are made for special things. A classical Leica M is made for street foto, the S3 is maybe more for product shooting, fashion shooting. If one want to make sport photography - well of course Leica isn´t the 1st choice. And of course one can make very bad pictures with a Leica and very good pictures with a one way plastic travel camera. No discussion about that. It´s not the pot that maked the food, the cook does it :-)

But I do photography as a hobby. And I want to spend time outside, going around and being attracted also by the form factor and the handling, the material of the camera body. And -only my opinion, I also accept and understand what you said- I love to make fotos with Leica Cameras. No Fuji with adapting Lenses from Wetzlar. Sure the pics can be same, or maybe better. Ok, no problem. A friend of mine loves his Nikon Equipment, He will never change. He does bird fotography and nature. But every time we meet he talks with big respect about Leica brand, the last german company making Cameras in Germany, knowing that of course his cam is much better for his needs! Ans also he will never buy a Leica.

OK, I hope I coud explain my view a little bit.

Back to theme, I hope that the APS-C Programm will be continued by Leica, and more cameras will be on the market, and the Idea if the L-Mount cooperation is also great. These cooperations can be very good for all parts of the team whic hare normally cometetors on the market.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Digitom]

vor 23 Stunden schrieb Le Chef:

It’s not - what you’re seeing is SEO (Search Engine Optimization) in play by Sony’s digital agency. They see a cheap way by paying for search terms to pick off a few uncertain FF buyers who like the idea of a Leica. Using SEO Sony gets to be the first FF brand they see, not the second.

I also do not trust google search results. I use mostly startpage. They also use the google algorithm but the results are being anonymised. Well, I heard that also Startpage is paying money to google to use their algorithm and so being tolerated by Google (until Startpage ill be one day big enough being assimilated by the "Google Borg" [ hello Trekkies :-) ] Hope that will nver become true!

But the results of startpage are more looking .-..-.-a kind of real. And one can open the result file anonymouse. Nice.