R8/9 Motor Winder completely dead - it was working perfectly the last time I used it.

[jrh68uk]

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So you're the one who bought the R8 from Ffordes! I've had my eye on that one for a while but was waiting for them to include pictures of it. Noticed today that it had gone already and seems I missed out - oh well. I'm glad it's all worked out for you. I've only just got into the R system after years of trying to persuade myself not to (wish I'd caved in years ago). Enjoy!

[wlaidlaw]

3 minutes ago, jrh68uk said:

So you're the one who bought the R8 from Ffordes! I've had my eye on that one for a while but was waiting for them to include pictures of it. Noticed today that it had gone already and seems I missed out - oh well. I'm glad it's all worked out for you. I've only just got into the R system after years of trying to persuade myself not to (wish I'd caved in years ago). Enjoy!

You see Jason, when there is an R in the month.......

 

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[mann61]

Love that 80-200/4 that's my next objective. The 60mm filter is a bit expensive but I will swap-out the one on my 35-70/4.

[wlaidlaw]

The NOS R8 Motor-Winder arrived today. DHL actually delivered from Germany quicker than they normally do. It really is new and was still in its Leica polythene bag inside the original box and totally immaculate. The motor-winder which died, was very hard used with the rubberised coating all peeling off. The only thing not there is the manual but I have a couple of perfect condition original paper copies of that already. I always wonder how these NOS items come to happen. Did a dealer fail to sell it, just shoved it to the back of the stock room and forgot about it? Maybe a customer bought it and then decided his R8 or 9 was big enough already and never used it. Of course it works perfectly on my R9 😀😀

Wilson

[masjah]

Case solved - and you've got an original battery cover to boot!

 

[james.liam]

I'm looking for one of these winders. Anyone know where I can land one? Pretty pricey on flEaBay and can't find one at the usual suspects. 

[wlaidlaw]

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James, 

As I am hoping to be a long term user of an R8 or 9, and given my bad experience with a seized motor on my original motor-winder, that is why I went for a new old stock one. I found it on a german auction site. I use the-saleroom.com as my auction house search engine. It does search a number of German auction houses but by no means all of them. Maybe some of our German speaking members will know of a Germany based auction house aggregator like the-saleroom.com and Germany biased rather than the UK. I paid just over €200 which is probably less than it was when it was made in 2004 (the date on the factory QC card). Whatever I shall be dismounting the two motor-winders from my R8 and R9 camera when not in use, to avoid what I suspect was what killed my previous motor-winder. I think it stuck in a half wound situation at the end of a film and the motor was left powered up. This caused the stator to overheat and distort. If I could get the end cap off the seized motor, I would have a look inside but it appears to be spot welded onto the main housing. 

Wilson

[james.liam]

Have issues with the winders been reported before?

[wlaidlaw]

Sadly yes a number of issues reported with those winders. The 6V motor is very compact at around 4cm in length and 1½cm in diameter. It is completely sealed with no cooling vents. I would imagine it gets quite hot, particularly on a rewind. The motor in my Motor-Winder M4-2 is far larger and has cooling slots, so that not only means there is more mass to absorb any heat but a small amount of air circulation and it does not have to do rewinds. I searched a number of different photo forums and there are a number of reports of these winders dying. Oddly there seem to be fewer reports of problems with the Motor-M, like I have on my M7, which looks as if it uses the same 6V electric motor, so I wonder if that is because it has a power switch, unlike the R version, so when left unused, the motor can be isolated and is not used continuously for rewinding like the R winder. The problem with the motor-m is in the camera, where it shears the overly small (about 1.5mm diameter) drive shaft. This also locates the main intermediate gear in the wind-on/shutter re-cocking mechanism and the camera jams solid. 

Mind you less problems with the Motor-Winder R than with the larger Motor R with the rechargeable battery pack, which appears to be a nightmare of unreliability, with electrical and charging problems. It always puzzled me why when Leica was completely redesigning the R from the 7 to the 8/9, they didn't take the opportunity to build in a motor, like their competitor Contax did with the RTS III and RX cameras, which are no bigger than the R8 or 9. Still with one new motor winder R and one motor winder R, which looks almost unused (the one that came with the R8 from Ffordes), I hope I will have a reasonable chance of having at least one working one for a few years. 

Wilson

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[james.liam]

I have the Motor Drive that was included with a pristine R8 I’d bought. Found a winder on flEaBay yesterday for US$160 so I sprang for it. A few scratches I’ll pull it on to my R9. 

[Michael White]

I purposely avoided R8 bodies with motors or winders as prior to buying my black pair, I read about connections between camera/motor giving problems. 
Having acquired 11 R lenses, I decided to have more than one R8 in case one failed. I’m aware that repairs are not being undertaken, either by Leica or others. I really like my R8 bodies, the weight does not bother me as I’ve always been hardy. I tend to use them with 28/2.8, 35/2 and 50/2 lenses. For travel I would take the 35-70.  I have read many comments by “Masjah “ and it was his praise that prompted me to get the R8s. 
I hope I bump into him in a church one day. All the best to everyone. 

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, Michael White said:

I purposely avoided R8 bodies with motors or winders as prior to buying my black pair, I read about connections between camera/motor giving problems. 
Having acquired 11 R lenses, I decided to have more than one R8 in case one failed. I’m aware that repairs are not being undertaken, either by Leica or others. I really like my R8 bodies, the weight does not bother me as I’ve always been hardy. I tend to use them with 28/2.8, 35/2 and 50/2 lenses. For travel I would take the 35-70.  I have read many comments by “Masjah “ and it was his praise that prompted me to get the R8s. 
I hope I bump into him in a church one day. All the best to everyone. 

Unfortunately due to arthritis, my right thumb for the lever wind or wind on knob does not work properly, so motor drives are more of an essential for me than a luxury. I now have them on my IIIa (2 speed MOOLY), M4-P, M7, R4, R8, R9 and on my Combat Graflex 70mm film camera. I have a spare R8/9 new old stock winder tucked away, for when the next one breaks. 

Wilson

[Michael White]

2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Unfortunately due to arthritis, my right thumb for the lever wind or wind on knob does not work properly, so motor drives are more of an essential for me than a luxury. I now have them on my IIIa (2 speed MOOLY), M4-P, M7, R4, R8, R9 and on my Combat Graflex 70mm film camera. I have a spare R8/9 new old stock winder tucked away, for when the next one breaks. 

Wilson

Wilson: I did notice your remark about your thumb. I’m pleased that you are able to continue with our hobby by utilising these accessories. I also have a pair of M4-P black bodies and use the VC 25mm f4 Snapshot Skopar with one using the entire frame plus the 40mm f2 Summicron - C on the other one. I use these for street photography with the Sixtomat Digital meter. It takes a single AA battery. As I’m new to the R8, I wonder if anyone has the answer to a query? If the mode dial is not at OFF and the shutter button is not pressed but the film wound on, does the camera use power? I bought several packs of the Duracell CR2 batteries when I got the bodies. So far not had to change despite using for 4 months. All the best. 

[masjah]

Michael, welcome to the Forum. I do indeed spend quite a lot of time photographing inside churches (though exterior architecture too when it's not too cold!). To answer your query, if the mode dial is not set to OFF then the camera will use power, though it will use somewhat less power if it has gone into its standby mode (that is, if it requires a short tap on the shutter to wake it up). I'm not surprised by your battery life - unlike many contemporary SLRs, there is no autofocus or automatic film wind to drive, so that would save power.

 

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, Michael White said:

Wilson: I did notice your remark about your thumb. I’m pleased that you are able to continue with our hobby by utilising these accessories. I also have a pair of M4-P black bodies and use the VC 25mm f4 Snapshot Skopar with one using the entire frame plus the 40mm f2 Summicron - C on the other one. I use these for street photography with the Sixtomat Digital meter. It takes a single AA battery. As I’m new to the R8, I wonder if anyone has the answer to a query? If the mode dial is not at OFF and the shutter button is not pressed but the film wound on, does the camera use power? I bought several packs of the Duracell CR2 batteries when I got the bodies. So far not had to change despite using for 4 months. All the best. 

Michael the real problem with the power system of the R8/9 is if you are using a winder. The CR123A batteries supply the winder and that in turn supplies the camera. The mode switch powers the camera down but not the winder. The winder powers itself down on completing each wind. However if you have come to the end of a film with a part wind, unless you press the rewind immediately, the very small motor with no ventilation, can remain powered up and stalled. It will overheat within minutes from the high current available from the lithium batteries and distort. It is therefore essential to rewind immediately at the end of a film every time. Leica do not emphasise this in their manuals and this is the cause of most winder failures. Now that I know, I always rewind immediately and if leaving the camera for anything longer than a couple of weeks, remove the batteries. It is actually a design error by Leica. The motor-winder should have had its own power switch like all the winders for the M series do, so that the batteries can be isolated. 

Another odd issue is the use of RCR123A rechargeable batteries in the R8 winder. The voltage of a freshly charged RCR123 battery can reach over 4 volts, against the 3.3V of a fresh Lithium-Managanese non-rechargeable battery and the rechargeables have lower internal resistance. The rewind with these RCR batteries can be sufficiently fierce as to tear the film, if you have a tightly wound cassette of film (Fomapan I am talking about you!), so not recommended. The same applies to the M4-P winder. Do NOT use lithium AA non-rechargeable cells in place of the recommended NiCad or NiMH batteries. Again it is voltage. A fresh Lithium-Manganese AA can be 1.73V against 1.25V of NiMH/NiCad. This will sufficiently overdrive the M4-P winder to the point it will jam or strip its gears.

I recently had a cassette of Fomapan 200 135 in one of the film backs for my Rolleiflex 3003 system camera. The film was so tight in the cassette, that I tore the film trying to wind it after a few frames and had to throw it away. 

Wilson

PS. I should have added that RCR123A rechargeable batteries can in theory be used in the Motor M but again, I am far from convinced that it is wise. I had been using RCR123A batteries in the Motor M on my M7 and the motor input shaft in the camera sheared. This shaft also supports the main intermediate gear of the winding gear train and when it shears, the whole camera locks up solid. I will stick to CR123A in future. It took months of begging letters to Leica, before they released a spare part for the M7, so that Alan Starkie could complete its rebuild. He also found that the shutter curtain spools had been misaligned on a previous service, which increased the drag on the motor winder spindle. The only known previous service of this camera had been in Solms, when the DX coding was upgraded to optical, the viewfinder was upgraded to M-P and a general CLA was done, so you can imagine I was not a happy bunny with Leica's obstructiveness on spare parts supply. W

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by wlaidlaw

[masjah]

Michael, just to confirm that I was talking about battery life with the R8 alone, running on its own batteries with no winder attached.

[TLCLeicaM3]

"It is therefore essential to rewind immediately at the end of a film every time."

Yes, overheating is the issue for this 'Micro' motor.

Worse case scenario isn't too far fetched : Power REWINDING a 36 Exposure roll just after having fired off some sports event in continuous fashion, means that the motor is

already pre-heated as you enter into a power rewind. - As a result, when I finish a roll, I MANUALLY rewind the film back into its cassette...

[wlaidlaw]

5 hours ago, TLCLeicaM3 said:

"It is therefore essential to rewind immediately at the end of a film every time."

Yes, overheating is the issue for this 'Micro' motor.

Worse case scenario isn't too far fetched : Power REWINDING a 36 Exposure roll just after having fired off some sports event in continuous fashion, means that the motor is

already pre-heated as you enter into a power rewind. - As a result, when I finish a roll, I MANUALLY rewind the film back into its cassette...

The motor only overheats when stalled, as there is no back-EMF generated by the motor rotating. I don't think there is any problem of overheating if you have been taking quite a few photos and then rewind. The current through the motor, when stalled, after a partial wind-on, is much greater than when running, evidenced by how long the batteries last in normal usage. I would always be worried doing a manual rewind, that the motor had not reached the end of its normal wind on sequence and been powered down. By performing the rewind at the end of a film, even after a partial wind-on, resets the internal sequencer and ensures the motor is powered down. 

Wilson

[GregNski]

Time to refresh this topic, as I have an R8 Motor Drive question.

What does the round switch on the bottom front do? Is it the power switch? It has a "dash" setting and a "dot" setting. The camera powers up either way, and the drive works either way. So what does the switch do? I have had fully charged ("three lights") batteries go dead when I kept them in the drive for a few days, so I suspect I may be leaving it "on" inadvertently and draining the battery.

And yes, I have a .pdf of the manual. It does not explain the function of the switch, unless I'm missing something.

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[andybarton]

Do you have a photo of the round switch?