R8/9 Motor Winder completely dead - it was working perfectly the last time I used it.

[wlaidlaw]

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My R8/9 motor winder, which has always worked perfectly and was working the last time I used my R9 a couple of months ago, seems totally dead. The battery indicator shows the battery as good and in any case I have tried with 2 new CR123A batteries as well. The camera, also powered from these batteries, is working as expected and I know the motor is communicating with the camera, as I can fire the shutter from the electrical shutter release, when this is plugged into the motor winder. It is as if I had accidentally switched the motor off but I don't think there is any setting to do that and the only switch on the motor is the rewind switch, unlike my Motor-M which has an on/off and speed selector. 

Anyone got any thoughts? I had thought of removing the cover on the motor-winder to see if the motor had become stuck on a dead sector or got some dust under its brushes. I could also apply 6V direct to the motor to see if it is a connection problem or a motor problem. Nobody repairs these cameras now or has spares for them. I don't want to buy another motor-winder only to find it is a camera problem. 

Wilson

[TomB_tx]

My Sympathies! Good point about repairs being unavailable now, so purchases are a risk. I just passed on a like-new R9 for that reason. Even DAG reported he no longer repairs any R models, as there is too much to go wrong even after repair.

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[wlaidlaw]

Now the whole camera has stopped working. It will work without film in it but when you put film in and wind the first frame on with the lever wind, the shutter will not fire. Very odd behaviour. It has also stopped recognising DX codes and shows ISO 100 on the back, the default ISO not DX as it should show. It also seems to be running the 2 CR123A batteries down very quickly, so I am guessing something is drawing a lot of current, maybe a stuck motor.

Has anyone got a regular (non-motor winder) battery compartment door I could borrow please, to try on the camera? My R9 came with the motor-winder attached and I have not been able to track down a regular battery cover/door for the 2 x CR2 batteries (where I do have some of these). 

Wilson

Edited April 13, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[gbealnz]

Sorry to hear this Wilson. I did have a slight bout of GAS for a while, and reading the thread James started in the Bar didn't help, made it worse. I had an R9 and DMR lined up, but got cold feet and talked myself out of it. Hopefully you get yours sorted, I suspect you are right, a stuck motor draining the batteries.

Gary

[msh58]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb wlaidlaw:

Now the whole camera has stopped working. It will work without film in it but when you put film in and wind the first frame on with the lever wind, the shutter will not fire. Very odd behaviour. It has also stopped recognising DX codes and shows ISO 100 on the back, the default ISO not DX as it should show. It also seems to be running the 2 CR123A batteries down very quickly, so I am guessing something is drawing a lot of current, maybe a stuck motor.

Has anyone got a regular (non-motor winder) battery compartment door I could borrow please, to try on the camera? My R9 came with the motor-winder attached and I have not been able to track down a regular battery cover/door for the 2 x CR2 batteries (where I do have some of these). 

Wilson

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Wilson. I had similar troubles with the R8/9 winder but they were rectified when I cleaned the contacts between the winder and the camera on both the winder and camera side. However, even though the winder didn't work, the camera was still fully functional. - Matti 

[wlaidlaw]

Matti, 

That was my first port of call and all the contacts have been cleaned with IPA and a soft fibreglass contact brush. Something is draining the batteries quite fast and logic would point to a seized motor. I will take the motor cover off today and see if I can rotate it manually. It is also not powering up in reverse when you slide the rewind switch across on the motor-winder, which again points to a motor issue. 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

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Hi Paul, 

Thanks for the useful advice. I have tried cleaning all the contacts, batteries to battery compartment, motor to camera, direct power supply from battery compartment to camera, camera back to camera and so on. The odd thing was when the motor first did not fire, the R9 was working properly on manual wind. It also works properly with no film in the camera but as soon as I  put film back in the camera (and I have tried with both DX and non-DX cassettes) the shutter will not fire after the first wind on. I will try what you said about taking the bottom off and gently easing the gears but I am going to start with the motor. I think the motor might be draining the batteries to the extent that the voltage has dropped too low to enable the shutter to fire and this is being actuated by the film being in the camera. I just hope the repair will be as successful as on the dead R4-MOT, which I was given free with the 500 MR-Telyt. The repair took me just over an hour start to finish, to take the top cover off, clean all the switch contacts and reassemble. The only difficult bit was refolding the ribbon cables correctly and not pinching any of the extremely thin wires. 

I have actually ended up buying an R8 with another motor winder. If the new motor winder works with the R9, I will buy yet another motor winder and resell the R8 with a motor winder. I can also try my old motor winder with the R8, so at the end of that, I will know where the fault lies. What I have been trying to find for the last 2 years is a regular/non motor battery cover, so that I can use the camera without the motor drive but none to be found. Arsenal Camera who I am sure will have some, as they bought the entire R8/9 inventory from Leica, don't reply to emails or messages. 

Wilson

Edited April 14, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[wlaidlaw]

Paul, 

The problem is diagnosed see picture below. The silver cylinder is the drive motor for the winder. It drives forward and reverse for wind on and rewind with 'O' rings on the motor spindle at each end of the motor, which press onto flat discs. The rewind button on the winder, then disengages the gearing for the wind on and both engages the gearing on the reverse side of the motor and powers up the motor to rewind the film. The motor is seized solid and cannot be rotated at all. It is many, many tiny screws to get to this stage and the motor/gearing chassis is extremely fiddly to get out of the main housing. The last place I used the camera a lot was in very dusty India, where I put 10 rolls through the camera. I suspect dust has got between the stator and rotor of the motor and jammed it solid. I don't have the regular battery holder for the camera, so I cannot test it without the motor. 

Wilson

 

 

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Edited April 14, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[wlaidlaw]

Short follow up: I took the silver cylindrical motor by itself, completely out from the chassis and managed to get it to rotate with the aid of a pair of Knipex mini-water pump grips on the motor spindle. It will only rotate fully in one direction and has a horrible graunchy feel, now that it has freed off a bit more and I can just manage to rotate it with fingers only. I would imagine either the rotor or the stator (probably the latter) has swollen up with power being applied and no back-EMF being generated by rotation, which will have led to quite high current and over-heating. Hopefully the R8 with working motor-winder, should reach me by about Thursday and I can then check that my R9 is OK. I will probably just keep the R8 to have a spare, for as and when my R9, if it proves to be working properly now, finally dies at some future date. It is reverse Murphy's law: If you have bought a spare part , to have one in stock, just in case the original fails, it never will fail. I suspect that might be being hopelessly optimistic for R8 and 9 Leicas 😶

Wilson

 

[gbealnz]

Just looking at your pic of the dead motor Wilson. Forgetting that though, is it possible to fit the batteries to the drive, without the motor in situ, and therefore power (temporarily of course) the camera, to see if it works now? No drive of course, but IIRC the battery grip (not motor, or winder) is just that, batteries, enclosed.

Or, fit the batteries, and run wires from the contacts at the top, to the area where they contact, Heath Robinson I realize, but it might establish the camera works, or not?
Gary

[wlaidlaw]

Gary, 

I had to use mini water pump pliers on the spindle to get the motor to turn at all, after I had removed it from the chassis. It will only turn a full turn in one direction and even after freeing it off, it feels horrible, really crunchy and the rotor is obviously fouling the stator or a brush has disintegrated and is fouling the commutator. it is a sealed motor, with crimped and spot welded end caps so cannot be disassembled further. I have been lucky and managed to buy a new unopened old stock R8 motor-winder at a reasonable cost (considerably less than some were asking for a used version) and that should be with me next week. I also have the R8 with motor winder arriving on Thursday. I had been thinking  for some time of buying an R8 as a back up for my R9 in view of them being irreparable. I made an offer to Boris for one of the new R8's he was selling but the offer was turned down. As I struggle with lever winds due to an inoperative joint at the base of my right thumb, a spare motor winder will not come amiss as well, given that from what folks are telling me, they appear to be somewhat fragile. I did not know that if you are leaving them, you should take the batteries out, as they can remain powered up. It is not like my Motor-M and Motor M4-2, both of which have power switches. 

Wilson

[gbealnz]

So will the circuit be complete without the motor in place? In other words, can the batteries installed feed power to the camera, regardless of the motor in/out? It would show the camera works if this was possible.

Gary

[wlaidlaw]

Gary, 

As I have two known working motor-winders arriving within the next few days, rather than trying something which has even a remote chance of damaging my R9, especially as it seems to be behaving oddly anyway, I think it is better to be patient and not to try what might be a "bodge". I have unsoldered the motor from the motor winder and tested it with an ohmmeter. it is not far off a dead short (about 5Ω) but it seems to have been connected via a voltage stabilising "three leg" regulator, which may have limited the current. 

Wilson

[gbealnz]

Good plan Wilson, wait a bit rather than charge in.

Gary

[wlaidlaw]

Really fallen on my feet with the R8 and Motor-Winder from Ffordes. It came all in its immaculate original boxes and with all the original paperwork. I can only assume that someone bought it and then put it in a cupboard, as it looks unused and makes my well loved and much travelled R9, look rather tatty. To my delight, it also came with the original battery holder/cover as well as the motor-winder, which when it is mounted, replaces the original battery cover/holder.

I tried the motor-winder on my misbehaving R9 and after a bit of chugging of the winder, where I suspect the drive train was being zeroed from a half wind, it then loaded the film correctly and everything is working, except the DX symbol on the back LCD. It is picking up the DX code, as if you change the ISO, it then shows a mis-match. I then switched the R9 to the non-motor battery cover with 2 x 2CR batteries, which Amazon had sent me in error a couple of years ago, instead of the CR123A I had ordered. Again it is all now working properly. I will put a motor-winder on it again next week, when the new old stock winder arrives from the German auction house where I  bought it. Their buyers' commission of 8.33% (7% + 19%  VAT) makes British auction houses look very greedy. Having wondered if I might sell on the R8 and winder, it is so lovely, I could not bear to part with such a beauty, even if it is a bit heavier than my R9. I even found a matching Leicatime dark blue braided silk strap for it. 

Wilson

 

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Edited April 16, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[masjah]

Wilson, that is excellent news indeed.

With regard to the DX coding, when the display is showing the correct film speed, does it say "ISO" with the number, or does it say "DX" with the number? If it says "ISO" then it's set manually to the correct film speed, and changing it will bring up the warning triangle. What you would then need to do would be to use the up button to scroll up beyond the fastest possible speed - this is where the auto DX setting is. It should then say "DX" with the film speed number.

 

[msh58]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb wlaidlaw:

Really fallen on my feet with the R8 and Motor-Winder from Ffordes. It came all in its immaculate original boxes and with all the original paperwork. I can only assume that someone bought it and then put it is a cupboard, as it looks unused and makes my well loved and much travelled R9, look rather tatty. To my delight, it also came with the original battery holder/cover as well as the motor-winder, which when it is mounted, replaces the original battery cover/holder.

I tried the motor-winder on my misbehaving R9 and after a bit of chugging of the winder, where I suspect the drive train was being zeroed from a half wind, it then loaded the film correctly and everything is working, except the DX symbol on the back LCD. It is picking up the DX code, as if you change the ISO, it then shows a mis-match. I then switched the R9 to the non-motor battery cover with 2 x 2CR batteries, which Amazon had sent me in error a couple of years ago, instead of the CR123A I had ordered. Again it is all now working properly. I will put a motor-winder on it again next week, when the new old stock winder arrives from the German auction house where I  bought it. Their buyers' commission of 8.33% (7% + 19%  VAT) makes British auction houses look very greedy. Having wondered if I might sell on the R8 and winder, it is so lovely, I could not bear to part with such a beauty, even if it is a bit heavier than my R9. I even found a matching Leicatime dark blue braided silk strap for it. 

Wilson

 

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Hi Wilson, Great to hear your R9 was resurrected by replacing the winder. Regarding whether to sell the R8 or not, I would keep it if I were you. That way you will have enough spare components should one or the other camera fail in the future.  I lost one R9 because of a failed light meter, sold it as non working and ultimately bought another one plus a spare. Both of the new R9s have worked perfectly since. It seems the "reverse Murphy's law" was activated by having the spare. - Matti

[wlaidlaw]

John, 

After practising what I preach and RTFM 😶, I found the DX setting on both cameras. On my R9, I had not changed it, so I assume that with the low voltage, odd things had happened. Both cameras are now showing "DX". 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

A quick heads-up for other R8/9 users. When this problem first arose a few days ago with my R9, I was having great trouble getting a new film to feed, even using the lever wind, (the motor-winder was seized by this time). Before I tried again today with the replacement motor-winder off the R8, I checked all round the take up roller in case there were some torn bits of film in there, using my illuminated sensor loupe. There were no bits of film but the roller was rather hard, shiny and very dusty. Given my last uses have been in India and Provence, both of which are very dusty, I should have cleaned it before. A rocket blower did not touch the dust which was stuck onto the roller surface. I therefore used a product I have used for years for cleaning printer rollers called: Electrolube Rubber Roller Restorer. At one time you could only get this from Xerox but Farnell now keep it. I used the last of mine today, so ordered more from Farnell. Amazon always seem to be out of stock. This cleaned the roller up beautifully and left a nice tacky and softer surface on the roller. When I mounted the motor, after a couple of starts, which I am guessing was re-synching the gearing and shutter re-cocking, it instantly loaded the film with no slipping this time. The roller in the R8 was quite clean but a bit hard, so I treated it as well. 

Wilson

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Hallo,

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[gbealnz]

Great news. I declined an R9 (and DMR, if I wanted) this week. You're sorted now though, so all good.

Gary