Frameline Accuracy Comparison

[marknorton]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

We're grateful to you for your efforts, Carsten, shows clearly just how off the framing is and you wonder who came up with the idea to get it right at closest focus only to have it way off at infinity.

[carstenw]

Graham, I don't know exactly what the problem was. The AWB was a little off in a couple of shots, but I selected all the shots in each series and used the best white balance I could find for the series as a unit. For some reason some of the shots show white balances which look wrong after that, and I don't know the reason. I was outside, and it was in the daytime, so a simple daylight setting should have sufficed, and I should not have had to do even the minor fiddling that I did. I did not want to white balance each shot individually, since this was about framing and there were 40 shots, and I was just trying to get it posted.

 

You know what, perhaps this comes down to lens coatings. Each lens does have its own slight colour cast...

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[ho_co]

I'd add one more caveat. Leica really has no competition for it's RF finder. It's still the best out there.

And it is one of the defining features of the M. If the M8 had turned up with a newfangled rangefinder, some of us traditionalists would have balked.

 

Puts had an article defining the DNA of the M as its shutter; IMHO he could as well have chosen the finder.

 

--HC

[photoarne]

Thank you for the tests Carsten, no big surprises, your M8 is about as bad as mine when it comes to framing accuracy...

FWIW I've made a somewhat similar test using the 25 mm Zeiss Biogon to see how the 24 mm framelines fit. First at 3,8 m with the framelines in the viewfinder crossing in the middle of the Post-it notes, as indicated with the thin line.

As can be seen, even at this relatively close distance and with a slightly longer focal length, the M8 still crops the image. Yet this is my most precise lens/frameline match by a good margin.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[photoarne]

Next at 1m. Here the outer edges of the Post-it notes were aligned with the inside of the framelines as indicated. Note the asymmetrical framing. On the whole the image is still outside the frameline, but due to the asymmetry, the lower part will be cropped slightly.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[adan]

1. Thanks for the post - saves me having to do it! ;^)

 

2. No mystery about why the 90 does better than the 75 - the 90's minimum focus in 1 meter, thus the lines are set for 1 meter framing. The 75's minimum focus (as well as the wider focal lengths) is .7 meter (well, .75 meter for the 1.4 - but it's extinct), thus those lines are set for .7 meter framing.

 

3. Sean - what is your source that Leica's "old" framing was 1 meter for all lenses? I expect that was true for the M3 50 years ago, because the M3 body originally had a 1 meter limit with ANY lens. I do not believe it was true for the M4, M4-P, M6 - they were set to frame corectly at .7 meters (except the 90, which still was focus-limited to 1 meter)

 

4. Lens color has far more to do with the glass used than the "coatings". What I see in Carsten's images is about what I would expect - the newer lenses (90, 28, 35) generally are pinker but consistent - the old Canadian 75 is a bit greener - the 50 ASPH is in between but leans to the green thanks to some exotic glass in one element 9the one that costs more than all the others combined).

 

Erwin Puts had a list of the "color values" for most of the Leica lenses since 1980 in his M-lens .pdf, and there were several noticeably green or cyan lenses - esp. the old 50 1.4, the 75 f/1.4, and the 21 pre-ASPH.

[gwelland]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

You know what, perhaps this comes down to lens coatings. Each lens does have its own slight colour cast...

 

That's part of what I was wondering about. I've witnessed this before with my own lens collection using a fixed white balance and with/without filters. In particular I have a first generation MATE that renders colour differently to my latest cron's & WATE. Not really a problem per se because I like the rendition a lot but it is slightly different.

[ho_co]

Re: Variation of image color based on lens used

 

The recent (last year?) set of LFI's comparing the various M lenses also noted the variations in color rendition for some lenses.

 

I don't know how things stack up today, but at one time Leica was known for having the best color-matched lenses on the market, though even then there was some variance among designs. (Absorban cement was touted as one reason for the effect; at the time only one lens had no cemented elements, and Leica said its color matched that of the other lenses because one element used a rather yellowish, highly refractive glass.)

 

 

Re: previous setting for finder frames

 

I'm getting to doubt myself in this matter and would like any clarification. I thought the finder frames had been designed for accuracy at 2 m when framing with the inside edge of the framelines for mounted color transparencies, and that that held up till the current 'closest-distance-setting' of the M8.

 

But then one member of the forum, citing sources impossible to check, said the frameline accuracy had been changed with the introduction of the 75mm frame in the M6.

 

Since all six framesets are formed by only two perforated metal foils, it's quite reasonable that when the 75 frame was added, the spacing or thickness or alignment of the other frames would have necessarily been changed.

 

But if I'm not mistaken, Leica claims the first change in accuracy was with the M8.

 

Just to set this troubled history to rest, does anyone--Sean thru his Leica contacts, perhaps, or Lars or Luigi with their historical knowledge--have any well-sourced data on the history of the framelines' alignment?

 

--HC

[adan]

here's a snapshot from the free download pdf "M-lenses - the souls and secrets" by E. Puts at leica-camera.com

 

shows the color values (B/G/R) for a variety of lenses. Lenses with red numbers as low as 2 or 3 (21 pre-asph, 50 lux pre ASPH, 75 lux, etc) tend to a cyany rendition (which I personally love) compared to the pinker lenses with a red value of 4-5, which includes most of the more modern designs.

 

but whatever your preferences - there is clearly a fair amount of color variation over the years and even among current (or near current) lenses (in addition to white-balance issues).

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[adan]

..and a little more food for thought on the "frameline history" question....

 

Leica and Rangefinders Forum: Accurate frame lines? - photo.net

 

Note that the above dates frm BEFORE the M8 - so the issue has been around well before it's "digital" version...

[ho_co]

Egad, Andy!

 

Thanks for the data on color variations for the lenses. Who'd have thought an international agency would have seen fit to create standards for that? (Probably the same guys who decided that the 'brontosaur' of my youth should really be called an 'apatosaur.' )

 

 

But it's great to see that the same conversation this thread is about has been going on for years!

 

One person in your link says what I thought I remembered, viz that M frames were accurate for mounted color slides at 2 m. (I know, there are also people on that thread who disagree with that statement.) But I seem to recall getting my understanding from my attendance at the week-long "Leica School" in New Jersey, probably in the early 70's.

 

Probably at any one time or another, the frame lines matched most or all of our descriptions.

 

And the reasoning that the thickness of the frames was changed at the time of the introduction of the 28mm frame makes more sense than my recollection that the change was made at the time the 75 was brought to market.

 

Thanks for the additional tantalizing leads!

 

--HC

[Dr No]

Bump for a very informative read.

Does anyone know how similar this is for M9, M240, M10?

Edited November 24, 2020 by Dr No

[UliWer]

For the M10 it's also at 2m that the framelines are exact for your focussing distance, showing more than you get on the phote for shorter and less for longer distances.