Let's have a look at some DNG files from the S3

[Chaemono]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb John Smith:

I guess the question is whether an S3 is worth $18,500 more than an S-adapter-L.

Presuppositional because it implies that the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility would say it's not. 

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/051815/what-difference-between-marginal-benefit-and-marginal-cost.asp

Economists believe that consumers make decisions at the margin; i.e. should one more unit of the good be obtained or not? The consumer will compare the additional (marginal) utility to be achieved by consuming one more unit of the good, to the additional (marginal) utility that must be given up (buying power) in order to obtain the good. At any particular price, the consumer will continue to buy units of the good as long as the marginal benefit, as expressed by maximum willingness to pay, exceeds the price. The marginal benefit indicates, in dollar terms, what the consumer is willing to pay to acquire one more unit of the good;

But it doesn't because the answer to the question whether the S3 is worth $18,500 more than the an S-adapter-L is purely subjective.

https://mises.org/library/what-can-law-diminishing-marginal-utility-teach-us

Utility is a subjective concept. It denotes "satisfaction" (or "happiness" or "contentment"). It rises if and when an individual increases his or her state of satisfaction. Conversely, if and when someone considers himself in a worse state of affairs, his utility decreases.  What is more, utility is an ordinal concept, meaning that utility cannot be measured in terms of higher or lower utility from the viewpoint of an individual; and changes in utility among different people cannot be measured. All one can say is that utility is higher or lower from the viewpoint of an individual.

Edited April 25, 2020 by Chaemono

[John Smith]

31 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Presuppositional because it implies that the Law of Diminishing Marginal Utility would say it's not. 

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/051815/what-difference-between-marginal-benefit-and-marginal-cost.asp

Economists believe that consumers make decisions at the margin; i.e. should one more unit of the good be obtained or not? The consumer will compare the additional (marginal) utility to be achieved by consuming one more unit of the good, to the additional (marginal) utility that must be given up (buying power) in order to obtain the good. At any particular price, the consumer will continue to buy units of the good as long as the marginal benefit, as expressed by maximum willingness to pay, exceeds the price. The marginal benefit indicates, in dollar terms, what the consumer is willing to pay to acquire one more unit of the good;

But it doesn't because the answer to the question whether the S3 is worth $18,500 more than the an S-adapter-L is purely subjective.

https://mises.org/library/what-can-law-diminishing-marginal-utility-teach-us

Utility is a subjective concept. It denotes "satisfaction" (or "happiness" or "contentment"). It rises if and when an individual increases his or her state of satisfaction. Conversely, if and when someone considers himself in a worse state of affairs, his utility decreases.  What is more, utility is an ordinal concept, meaning that utility cannot be measured in terms of higher or lower utility from the viewpoint of an individual; and changes in utility among different people cannot be measured. All one can say is that utility is higher or lower from the viewpoint of an individual.

Well said.

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[setuporg]

Of course the question makes not sense as S is very different, and we value the experience of photography as a whole -- from touching, holding, focusing manually with distance, enjoying the mirror flapping, and having this whole argument here.  So SL will never substitute for an S.  A 100 years later there will be enthusiasts marveling at their antique S cameras and lenses.

[John Smith]

On 4/25/2020 at 3:41 PM, setuporg said:

Of course the question makes not sense as S is very different, and we value the experience of photography as a whole -- from touching, holding, focusing manually with distance, enjoying the mirror flapping, and having this whole argument here.  So SL will never substitute for an S.  A 100 years later there will be enthusiasts marveling at their antique S cameras and lenses.

Makes no sense? I could say a lot about this but I won’t.

Edited April 26, 2020 by John Smith

[setuporg]

@John Smith I meant replacing S with SL makes no sense for me, apologies for generalization.  Even if the final images were identical, different handling, OVF, manual lens focusing with distance scale and infinity, and the larger field of view would not make the experiences in any way equivalent.

What I meant to say is, the final images are not the only things we compare, and for some people they would not make cameras replaceable even if similar.  The overall experience with S is really different.

[John Smith]

On 4/27/2020 at 6:04 PM, setuporg said:

@John Smith I meant replacing S with SL makes no sense for me, apologies for generalization.  Even if the final images were identical, different handling, OVF, manual lens focusing with distance scale and infinity, and the larger field of view would not make the experiences in any way equivalent.

What I meant to say is, the final images are not the only things we compare, and for some people they would not make cameras replaceable even if similar.  The overall experience with S is really different.

LFI just came out and said that the differences between the S3 and SL2 were "marginal," not that that is scientific speak or anything. I have a 007, along with 3 lenses. Yes, I like using the S, but the SL2 and adapter shouldn't be lightly brushed aside. I just took a few photographs with it and the 100mm at 1/10 of a second and they are sharp. Try doing that handheld with an S. Manual focus on the SL2 is much easier than with the S, and while the SL2 doesn't have a  distance scale, it has focus peaking in the EVF which is probably more accurate. The LCD shows the images to have a different rendering from the SL Crons.   I plan to compare the 100mm with adapter to the 90mm SL Cron this weekend.   

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, John Smith said:

Manual focus on the SL2 is much easier than with the S, and while the SL2 doesn't have a  distance scale, it has focus peaking in the EVF which is probably more accurate. The LCD shows the images to have a different rendering from the SL Crons.   I plan to compare the 100mm with adapter to the 90mm SL Cron this weekend.   

I don’t use focus peaking on my SL2, but back button AF (including easy placement of AF point), then turning focus ring to engage focus magnification, is simple and dead accurate. The SL 24-90 is terrific, but the SL75 I also use is even better.  

Nothing beats the S OVF for pure viewing pleasure IMO, but magnification directly off the sensor wins the functionality comparison.

Jeff

[LeicaR10]

John Smith,  Based on my experience with my former SL2 system, waning S007 and new S3, both my corporate and private collectors of my landscape photographs like the rendering of the S system far more than SL2.  When it comes to my clients, they always vote with their wallets.  I would often get comments when I used the SL2, the photographs were too "in your face" or "too real".  The SL2 is a most excellent, very high resolving camera and lens system.  Only I found my clients like the smooth, cinematic rendering of the S camera(s) and lenses.  I decided to off load the whole SL2 system and found new homes for all the gear via eBay.  Personally, I like the S3 for increased exposure time, pixels and color better when married to the magnificent S lenses.  The S007 is a back up camera until I am satisfied with reliability and that will find a new home with one of my assistants in about a week.  As Jeff S wrote about the OVF, the S is "pure viewing pleasure" and IMO he is correct. The other aspect that is really nice with the S, what you see in the OVF is what you get when you release the shutter in that moment of time.  Most important, as long a my clients are happy...then I am too.  r/ Mark  

Edited April 30, 2020 by LeicaR10
Grammar

[scott kirkpatrick]

I haven't shot with an S, whether original CCD or CMOS so I can't comment on the shooting experience or the out-of-the-camera look.  I recall David Farkas went to great lengths a few years ago to show that with Adobe-level full image post processing (no dodging, no burning) he could make either M generation of camera look like the other.  So default profiles from Adobe or Capture One or your choice have an impact on what OOC "look" is assumed for a camera.

I don't have an S3, but I do use the SL and SL2 and have some S lenses for which  there is no good L-mount equivalent.  I've used the S APO 120 macro and have an S 100 SC arriving next week. The 120 gives great results on an SL or SL2,.  I prefer it to the R lenses (100 and 60), not for its autofocus (which is pretty slow and fussy) but for the clarity of its rendering of middle tones.  From the technical specs, the S 100 looks more like an R 80/1.4 rather than an R 90 Summicron.  I wish I could get a loan or affordable rental of an S3 for a month to see what both lenses can do with their full field of view.

[John Smith]

6 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

John Smith,  Based on my experience with my former SL2 system, waning S007 and new S3, both my corporate and private collectors of my landscape photographs like the rendering of the S system far more than SL2.  When it comes to my clients, they always vote with their wallets.  I would often get comments when I used the SL2, the photographs were too "in your face" or "too real".  The SL2 is a most excellent, very high resolving camera and lens system.  Only I found my clients like the smooth, cinematic rendering of the S camera(s) and lenses.  I decided to off load the whole SL2 system and found new homes for all the gear via eBay.  Personally, I like the S3 for increased exposure time, pixels and color better when married to the magnificent S lenses.  The S007 is a back up camera until I am satisfied with reliability and that will find a new home with one of my assistants in about a week.  As Jeff S wrote about the OVF, the S is "pure viewing pleasure" and IMO he is correct. The other aspect that is really nice with the S, what you see in the OVF is what you get when you release the shutter in that moment of time.  Most important, as long a my clients are happy...then I am too.  r/ Mark  

Did you try the SL2 with the S adapter? If so, what difference was there between the it and the 007 or S3? Were the photographs still "too in your face"? Did the S lenses lose that "smooth, cinematic rendering" on the SL2? I'm just curious to know. As I said, I have an 007 and am on the list for an S3. But the S lenses on the SL2 open things up. 

Edited April 30, 2020 by John Smith

[LeicaR10]

John Smith,  Yes, I used the SL2 with S adapter hoping that would be a solution for some features lacking in the S cameras. (Not to mention a $14K lower cost solution) The answer from my clients, they don't like the rendering of the from the SL2.  They prefer my photographs taken with the S007 and now S3.  You may find the SL2 with S lenses work for you.  As I mentioned before, the S3 offers me longer exposure times for night sky/landscape photography, better detail in my very large prints needed by my corporate clients.  My private collectors really like how the S cameras and lenses render in a more smooth, cinematic way to include the color.  The color isn't a color management issue either.  I found the S3 needs less PP for color and detail is even better.  When I asked for comments from my clients said, they much prefer the S camera and lens rendering when I did some comparisons taken of the same scene shot with the SL2 with both SL and S lenses.  The SL2 is a great camera and lenses are superb for those who want realistic, highly resolved photographs. In the opinion of my clients and myself, the SL2 with S lenses don't render like the sensor(s) from the S007 or S3.  The S system either meets or exceeds my client requirements and that is great for me.  Every photographer has different needs and expectations for their camera gear.  At the end of the day, it all gets down to meeting my clients requirements and I found the S system does that for me.  I hope this helps.  r/ Mark

Edited April 30, 2020 by LeicaR10

[GMB]

@LeicaR10 Hi Mark. I read with interest your recent posts. I have the S006 (and a bunch of S lenses) and the M10. I am contemplating to get either the SL2, the S007 (refurbished), or the S3.  Do you have examples that illustrate your point regarding the different look of the S vs the SL and can these be seen somewhere? Thanks. Georg

 

[LeicaR10]

GMB,  I am in Australia right now.  I will send you an email tomorrow.  r/ Mark

[GMB]

46 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

GMB,  I am in Australia right now.  I will send you an email tomorrow.  r/ Mark

Thanks Mark. Looking forward to that. Georg

[tom0511]

As a user of both systems (SL2 and S007) I find this very interesting question. The SL2 + 50/1.4SL lens is the combo I find comes closest to the S look.

Frienkly if I would lug around the big S lenses than I would want to use tham on a S-body.

My feeling...SL2 with SL-primes is super sharp and great IQ but doesnt reach the smooth transitions and midtones like the S-System.

S-lenses on SL2 move it a little bit into that direction, but still not reach the overall MF-look of S lens on S body.

I am very interested in S3 vs S007 thoughts and experiences.

 

[John Smith]

On 4/30/2020 at 3:25 PM, LeicaR10 said:

John Smith,  Yes, I used the SL2 with S adapter hoping that would be a solution for some features lacking in the S cameras. (Not to mention a $14K lower cost solution) The answer from my clients, they don't like the rendering of the from the SL2.  They prefer my photographs taken with the S007 and now S3.  You may find the SL2 with S lenses work for you.  As I mentioned before, the S3 offers me longer exposure times for night sky/landscape photography, better detail in my very large prints needed by my corporate clients.  My private collectors really like how the S cameras and lenses render in a more smooth, cinematic way to include the color.  The color isn't a color management issue either.  I found the S3 needs less PP for color and detail is even better.  When I asked for comments from my clients said, they much prefer the S camera and lens rendering when I did some comparisons taken of the same scene shot with the SL2 with both SL and S lenses.  The SL2 is a great camera and lenses are superb for those who want realistic, highly resolved photographs. In the opinion of my clients and myself, the SL2 with S lenses don't render like the sensor(s) from the S007 or S3.  The S system either meets or exceeds my client requirements and that is great for me.  Every photographer has different needs and expectations for their camera gear.  At the end of the day, it all gets down to meeting my clients requirements and I found the S system does that for me.  I hope this helps.  r/ Mark

Mark, I appreciate the feedback. It sounds like most of your work involves the use of a tripod.

[LeicaR10]

John,  Yes it does and then some, with two assistants as pack mules...LOL  r/ Mark

[John Smith]

On 4/29/2020 at 10:56 PM, LeicaR10 said:

John Smith,  Based on my experience with my former SL2 system, waning S007 and new S3, both my corporate and private collectors of my landscape photographs like the rendering of the S system far more than SL2.  When it comes to my clients, they always vote with their wallets.  I would often get comments when I used the SL2, the photographs were too "in your face" or "too real".  The SL2 is a most excellent, very high resolving camera and lens system.  Only I found my clients like the smooth, cinematic rendering of the S camera(s) and lenses.  I decided to off load the whole SL2 system and found new homes for all the gear via eBay.  Personally, I like the S3 for increased exposure time, pixels and color better when married to the magnificent S lenses.  The S007 is a back up camera until I am satisfied with reliability and that will find a new home with one of my assistants in about a week.  As Jeff S wrote about the OVF, the S is "pure viewing pleasure" and IMO he is correct. The other aspect that is really nice with the S, what you see in the OVF is what you get when you release the shutter in that moment of time.  Most important, as long a my clients are happy...then I am too.  r/ Mark  

Interesting perspective, especially given your landscape photography. I looked again at @Chaemono's raw files of the stone wall, and find that I prefer the SL2 and 90SL over the S3 and 120mm. As @decurion99put it, the S lenses appear to be showing their age a bit. That's not to say they aren't great lenses and lend themselves to a gorgeous rendering. But it is interesting to note how everyone couldn't believe how sharp they were when they were first introduced, but now it is all about them being so "cinematic." I'm still on the list for an S3, but I'll still on the fence about it, too. I have the S007 and even the S-adapter now, but the SL2's IBIS and lenses are pretty compelling. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by John Smith

[DanielJr]

On 5/1/2020 at 10:16 AM, tom0511 said:

As a user of both systems (SL2 and S007) I find this very interesting question. The SL2 + 50/1.4SL lens is the combo I find comes closest to the S look.

Frienkly if I would lug around the big S lenses than I would want to use tham on a S-body.

My feeling...SL2 with SL-primes is super sharp and great IQ but doesnt reach the smooth transitions and midtones like the S-System.

S-lenses on SL2 move it a little bit into that direction, but still not reach the overall MF-look of S lens on S body.

I am very interested in S3 vs S007 thoughts and experiences.

 

Just curious do you have pictures to back up this claim? 

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[John Smith]

On 5/1/2020 at 9:16 AM, tom0511 said:

As a user of both systems (SL2 and S007) I find this very interesting question. The SL2 + 50/1.4SL lens is the combo I find comes closest to the S look.

Frienkly if I would lug around the big S lenses than I would want to use tham on a S-body.

My feeling...SL2 with SL-primes is super sharp and great IQ but doesnt reach the smooth transitions and midtones like the S-System.

S-lenses on SL2 move it a little bit into that direction, but still not reach the overall MF-look of S lens on S body.

I am very interested in S3 vs S007 thoughts and experiences.

 

if you get into the weeds of @Chaemono's stone wall images, the bokeh or out-of-focus area of the 90mm is nicer than the 120mm's. Just sayin'.

Edited May 8, 2020 by John Smith