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Let's have a look at some DNG files from the S3


Chaemono

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8 hours ago, decurion99 said:

I know from someone who knows Dr. Kaufmann that he himself confided that 80% of S users are well off professionals in the second half of life wanting to chase that photography dream, but end up just paying 30k for a system to photograph flowers, kids and dogs. So sales strategy on S is to upsell to M and SL users; IQ wise, difficult to trump what Wetzlar did with the SL plus new lenses. 

To read this comment from senior management of Leica is profoundly disappointing. Does he think we are all just fools to be even interested in the S3? No matter your reason for investing in a camera system to be trivialized and dismissed as not important to the Leica brand is disheartening to say the least. I purchased the S2 in 2010, over time acquired 6 S lenses, endured the S lens fiasco, upgraded to the 007, over $50K investment. It does not matter how much money you have, nor what profession you do, no company should treat their customers with such disregard.

After waiting all this time, this S forum is hungry for S3 information that Leica is not providing. No DNG's, no 007 to S3 comparison, field reviews, no trade in program, etc. Why such a lack of info ... his comments says it all.

 

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37 minutes ago, Joe said:

To read this comment from senior management of Leica is profoundly disappointing. Does he think we are all just fools to be even interested in the S3? No matter your reason for investing in a camera system to be trivialized and dismissed as not important to the Leica brand is disheartening to say the least. I purchased the S2 in 2010, over time acquired 6 S lenses, endured the S lens fiasco, upgraded to the 007, over $50K investment. It does not matter how much money you have, nor what profession you do, no company should treat their customers with such disregard.

After waiting all this time, this S forum is hungry for S3 information that Leica is not providing. No DNG's, no 007 to S3 comparison, field reviews, no trade in program, etc. Why such a lack of info ... his comments says it all.

 

I think it is not to be seen negatively and I do not know the full conversation: All I was told is that it was stated that the vast majority of S customers are not professionals, but well-off enthusiasts. Clearly that then changes the marketing strategy. It is just a statement of fact that most working photographers, the vast majority of them, are not Leica customers, but Canon and Fuji and Sony and Nikon customers. The value proposition is totally different. The build quality is exemplary. The optics are among the best. But there's a reason they can get away with selling a technologically less advanced body for 18k USD, while a Fuji, chock full of technology costs half. Essentially they are the Hermes of the photography world. You wouldn't buy that Kelly bag to travel Asia, but to show it off in a nice café or at work. 

The Leica stores are in Kensington in London and you see a totally different clientele there than in a large photo store for professionals. For working photographers spending 2k on a 85mm lens is a real investment, while this doesn't even get you a 1/3rd of a 100 Summicron in S-land. Photography itself has been commoditised nowadays anyhow. Chances are you shoot that pretty landscape shot (like in Iceland) with five senior "enthusiasts" beside you all with a P150 back and an Alpa and everyone thinks he is the next big photographer just because he has the cash to buy the gear. Look at P1 - they have this marketing campaign now targeted at pensioners wanting to follow their passion because this is where the money is nowadays. The S never had a breakthrough with pros. Price point, lower resolution, Lightroom vs. C1, no support network, Pro Format instead of 4:3, AF motor issues, slow updates, etc. 

Look at the leaked S marketing materials - their target customers are SL and M customers they want to upsell to. Eg the lawyer wanting to "up" his "game", but not the Canon shooter getting squeezed on the billing side by corporate clients because there's always that eager student wanting to do it for free or for half. Lots of nice wife, car, dog, kid pics, but not Vogue photoshoots (that's then Hassy / P1). Not judging, but just a fact.

Also the fact that there's 0 marketing for the S3 IMHO says all. And that they didn't change pricing: They want to milk the die-hard Leica customers insensitive to price ... like your local Leica dealer telling you that the S3 is in stock, that you can come by ... etc.

And technology is marching on. Although the SL with APO lenses is great, Canon produced some amazing glass with their new larger R mount and the possibilities resulting from mirrorless bodies. The new 50 1.2 and 85 1.2 a extremely sharp and APO; it can well be that the new R5 will significantly supersede the SL in usability and quality with 20 FPS including AF eye tracking - as even with Maestro 3 the SL autofocus is significantly slower than what Canon now introduced with the 1DX MKIII in live view mode.

But Leica was never the best pro camera, but more the most loved camera. It is the sheer joy of holding a substantial quality product in your hands that IMHO defines their proposition and this is also that feeling of joy when you grab that aluminium SL body and bring it along for a stroll with the family. It is just an exceedingly nice product, a thing Leica is very good at, albeit not in a most technologically advanced way.  

In the case of the S I just think the body pricing should have been more like 10k, but we will see how this works out for them ...

Edited by decurion99
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6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

You may not get it before the Covid-19 pandemic subsides anyway which could be by the end of next year.  So, you have plenty of time to think about it.  😂

I appreciate you doing these comparisons with the SL2 and Summicrons. I think it might be smarter to wait till the end of next year, virus or not. 

Edited by John Smith
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I agree with Milan that the high ISO performance of the S3 is way better than the SL2's when files are pushed.  One cannot lift Shadows by +80 with SL2 ISO 3200 or ISO 1600 files after Exposure was pushed by 1 stop in LR.  I'll shoot both cameras side by side to confirm it.  This is what was done with the pictures in this and the next post, Exposure +1.05, Highlights -69, Shadows +80, Whites +20, Blacks -25, Vibrance +15, Saturation +2 plus tweaking of the Camera Calibration in LR.  Links to download the DNGs are included anyway.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-JkgxSt/

S3 + 120 Summarit ISO 1600 as shot, DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g128781005-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=-3ALMB6himO9iROasLlQ-mG42E1LqOJw4Fz8zAl7Lr8=

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ISO 1600 f/2.5 @1/500 sec.

Same as above processed

 

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And now ISO 3200.  It looks pretty clean even after being pushed.  I forgot to mention, NR was set to +30 and Sharpening to +50 for the ISO 1600 picture in #44 and this one here.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-JkgxSt/

S3 + 120 Summarit ISO 3200 as shot, DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g288673632-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=JN-YHZq8M5j1yv_ZWtz1fjYtKjbaa43yX6V3lAgdaMQ=

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ISO 3200 f/2.5 @1/1000 sec.

Same as above processed

Edited by Chaemono
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I forgot to mention, I shot the X1D II with the XCD 80/1.9 side by side at ISO 1600 and ISO 3200, too, but didn't post the pictures because that darn thing misfocused in something like 10 shots (I still have the files in case anyone cares).  The S3 AWB is way better, the X1D/II has a slight edge in terms of noise when files are pushed but the difference is insignificant IMO.  The XCD 80/1.9 was a sharper wide open, but that was also bacause it was harder to handhold the S3 with the 120 Summarit.  It's really easy to keep the XCD II steady because of that grip.  But the Hassy lens fringed a lot more.

Edited by Chaemono
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20 hours ago, decurion99 said:

All I was told is that it was stated that the vast majority of S customers are not professionals, but well-off enthusiasts.

That's always been the case. As they (used to) say "most professionals use Hasselblad, most Hasselblads are sold to amateurs." The same is true of all professional-level cameras, why single-out Leica? They need to sell to both markets, and they have different strategies for each. From my experience, professionals prefer to deal directly with suppliers and distributors. They don't care much for reviews and promo videos, and they have stronger opinions about what features are relevant to their work.

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Comparing the S3 files from here with some of my S007 I would say that I certainly don't see any less noise in the S3 images (both seen at 100%).

My 1st impression is that the S007 @iso 800 has the same amount of noise than the S3 @iso 400.

No idea of course if the sensitivity of both are equal but it's quite disappointing as I expected the other way around, the S3 being at least 1 stop better than the S007.

The new sensor tech can do no wonders with 64mp on board maybe.

Chaemono, what's your take ?

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb SaW:

Comparing the S3 files from here with some of my S007 I would say that I certainly don't see any less noise in the S3 images (both seen at 100%).

My 1st impression is that the S007 @iso 800 has the same amount of noise than the S3 @iso 400.

No idea of course if the sensitivity of both are equal but it's quite disappointing as I expected the other way around, the S3 being at least 1 stop better than the S007.

The new sensor tech can do no wonders with 64mp on board maybe.

Chaemono, what's your take ?

I never used an S007 and, therefore, can’t compare.  The only reason I got the S3 is because of the lockdown.  I ordered it online sort of impulsively last Wednesday and it was delivered on Friday.  If we’re still in quarantine six months from now, I’ll be able to answer.  I figure at that point I may buy used S007, too.  Maybe even get a second 120 Summarit-S so I won’t have to change lenses as I shoot them side by side. 😂

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

I never used an S007 and, therefore, can’t compare.  The only reason I got the S3 is because of the lockdown.  I ordered it online sort of impulsively last Wednesday and it was delivered on Friday.  If we’re still in quarantine six months from now, I’ll be able to answer.  I figure at that point I may buy used S007, too.  Maybe even get a second 120 Summarit-S so I won’t have to change lenses as I shoot them side by side. 😂

I was really curious whether you'll do that given the SL2 vs X1Dii studies, and am glad you did!  Do you see the immediate improvement in DR over SL2?  Somehow my 007 feels producing better OOC images every time.  It's also possible to have a complete lens array for the S, as it is fully done and not expanding for a while...  I even got the TS.  I wonder how would the S100 do on S3, please get that one!

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

Do you see the immediate improvement in DR over SL2? 

I haven’t compared the two directly in situations where this would be visible, yet.  The lockdown makes things a bit difficult. One thing is for sure,  ISO 100 of the SL2 is impressive in terms of ‘push-ability’ and ‘pull-ability’ of files and I’m not sure where base ISO is for the S3.

vor 6 Stunden schrieb setuporg:

I wonder how would the S100 do on S3, please get that one!

I have enough gear for a twelve month lockdown. After that things start to get difficult. The S100 would be on the agenda if we’re still quarantined we’ll into 2021.  At that point we’ll be most likely living in a subsistence economy and a loaf of bread can be exchanged for Leica lenses. 😂

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17 hours ago, SaW said:

My 1st impression is that the S007 @iso 800 has the same amount of noise than the S3 @iso 400.

Remember that the S007 files probably have a profile applied in your raw processor, which means that your S007 files may have noise reduction applied.

Also, you did not mention if you were comparing per-pixel noise, or if you re-scaled both images to the same size (presumably 37.5MP). If you are comparing per-pixel noise, you should take into account the fact that the S3 pixels are much smaller, which makes the noise less visible in final images.

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1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Remember that the S007 files probably have a profile applied in your raw processor, which means that your S007 files may have noise reduction applied.

Also, you did not mention if you were comparing per-pixel noise, or if you re-scaled both images to the same size (presumably 37.5MP). If you are comparing per-pixel noise, you should take into account the fact that the S3 pixels are much smaller, which makes the noise less visible in final images.

It remains to be seen that noise reduction is applied on a S007 file if the LR cursors are put to 0.

My comparison was basic: applying same settings on both S3 and S007 pictures and compare it in the shadow tones at 100% on split screen.

I don't care really about standardizing the comparison. If I buy an S3 it is to print larger. What I can print natively at 80cm largest border with the S007 I could print natively at 100cm larger border with the S3 and I'd like to see what the noise level looks like if doing so. 

Only 1st impression but again, doing so, S3 file is noisier at same iso.

Before considering upgrading to the S3 I want to check the colors rendering / DR / iso between 100 and 6400 of the new body. 

If all 3 are (clearly) better I'll buy, if only 2 out of 3 are better, probably not and if only 1 is a clear upgrade advantage, then I'll keep my good old S007 a few more years.

 

 

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Leica is producing wonderful products. Despite what some are saying and conveying in former posts I find it insulting to imply that the S is primarily aimed to old, fat and wealthy dentists that are buying things asking the shop keeper what is the most expensive item in their stock...

The S007 produces unmatched natural pictures that the best Nikon, Sony, Fuji GF cameras can't. You don't see it ? fine, maybe you're not sensitive to it our your eyes are not trained enough (try looking at the Hermès products nuances and colors a bit more seriously....)

But it is true that the price and efforts to get a perfect Leica S set are considerable.

F.i. my S120mm focus accuracy has always been incredibly good on the S007 but my S70mm was more tricky.

I did send it to Leica 2 years ago but it was returned to me 'as is' with no improvement. Last year I sent it again for AF upgrade but it again didn't improve its accuracy.

I sent it back to Leica once more 2 months ago after seeing that the AF was blocking (couldn't come back from far to close distance) when using it on the SL2 with adapter. 

Now finally the AF ring is super smooth and accuracy is great with the S007.  

Just an example of what to expect with those hand made products.

All this has been fully covered by the warranty but cost me time and frustration using the S70 and other items I did sell back in the meantime (S100mm I'm looking at you !).

 

My 3 S lenses kit is now - after 3 years - impeccable.

And I consider the S3 upgrade as a risk to fall again in possible technical issues/imperfections.

So even with a great trade-up offer the S3 better be worth the risk and pain to let my finely tuned S007 go !

 

Edited by SaW
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