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Let's have a look at some DNG files from the S3


Chaemono

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17 minutes ago, John Smith said:

if you get into the weeds of @Chaemono's stone wall images, the bokeh or out-of-focus area of the 90mm is nicer than the 120mm's. Just sayin'.

Do you mean post #21, I didn't check sharpness but bokeh? 

I want first say there is no lens will have pretty bokeh under this condition first, both looks quite so so to me. Then, I think most problem region of bokeh for almost all lens is corner.  I see 90mm cron is no exception but 120 behave much better in this case suggest its design has huge sensor coverage even for S format with margin. This is also the treat I see almost all S glasses.  

As for sharpness, I have to say sharpness is cheap nowdays. IF that is the requirement, I could buy any FF system in market without worry to much difference :) There are so many sharp lens nowdays everywhere.  

For rendering, I haven't seen better than S maybe save a few film area glasses on larger format, but they are also not sharper. For stopdown shooting, any modern glass on most system will do, for WO shooting, rendering and focus transition is way more important than sharpness in my book. 

Just another opinion, peace. 

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36 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

Do you mean post #21, I didn't check sharpness but bokeh? 

I want first say there is no lens will have pretty bokeh under this condition first, both looks quite so so to me. Then, I think most problem region of bokeh for almost all lens is corner.  I see 90mm cron is no exception but 120 behave much better in this case suggest its design has huge sensor coverage even for S format with margin. This is also the treat I see almost all S glasses.  

As for sharpness, I have to say sharpness is cheap nowdays. IF that is the requirement, I could buy any FF system in market without worry to much difference :) There are so many sharp lens nowdays everywhere.  

For rendering, I haven't seen better than S maybe save a few film area glasses on larger format, but they are also not sharper. For stopdown shooting, any modern glass on most system will do, for WO shooting, rendering and focus transition is way more important than sharpness in my book. 

Just another opinion, peace. 

+1. Using SL and S in parallel (but being an enthusiast amateur, only), my impression is that the SL lenses are close to as optically good as it gets, but that the rendering of the S-lenses - particularly on the S - is more pleasant. As perfection is mixed with a little Walter Mandler magic. Entirely subjective, of course (but plenty good for me and my use...). 

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb John Smith:

if you get into the weeds of @Chaemono's stone wall images, the bokeh or out-of-focus area of the 90mm is nicer than the 120mm's. Just sayin'.

I am not so much talking aout a smooth background, I am more talking about how abrupt/smooth the focused subject "connects" to the background. 

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb DanielJr:

Just curious do you have pictures to back up this claim? 

it is just what I overall feel when I look at my images, having used the S-system longterm and the SL/SL2. Most of direct comparisons I shot and saw are useless IMO, small differences in focus point, exposure etc. leads to mis-interpretations too often.

 

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My friend here was selling an SL2, and since the S3 seems like it is a bit unlikely to come to me any time soon, I decided to add the SL2. So far I am very impressed. I already had the 50mm Summicron to use with my S1, and it is incredible. I have not done a ton of testing yet, but two things are very clear: The S006 still has amazing quality at low ISO, and the S lenses leave very little to be desired on the SL2. I think the real question is whether the added utility of AF and marginal increase in quality is worth it over the tiny and faster modern M lenses like the 35mm Summilux, 75mm and 90mm Summicrons etc. I think in some cases they will be, but for me it looks like the 120mm and 180mm S lenses will be the most useful for the reach and performance, while anything shorter is probably better addressed with an M lens. Again, will need to do more testing, but it is a thought...

Oh, and I still think the S system is the most pleasant to actually use. The SL2 seems a bit unbalanced and unergnomic compared to the S, all the more so with the S lenses. Sure, it feels good compared to most cameras, but the S still fits in the hand better than any digital camera I have used. I think the S3 is still the camera that I am waiting for, but the SL2 is quite remarkable for what it gives you in a smaller, less-expensive package (it is all relative, of course...see the S1R etc).

Edited by Stuart Richardson
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John Smith,  As I mentioned in my post # 171, I found my clients did not like the rendering of the SL2 and SL lenses simply because the photographs were "too real" or "too perfect".  The SL system is superb for those who want perfection and high FF 35mm resolution.  Since my clients pay the freight, I simply jettisoned the SL system and stuck with the S system simply because the lenses are not software corrected and in conjunction with the S007 or S3 sensor, render a more smooth, dreamy cinematic way.  You may find the SL2 with SL lenses or with S lenses render the way you like best.  For my work, the SL2 and S lenses didn't work out either.  So the SL system as good as it is...didn't make my clients happy.  The solution for me to have happy clients again, was the S system.  Hope this helps. r/Mark

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S lens on SL2 is fine but that is it and that is all I can say about it.  just like 80mm contax645 or 110 Hassy on S, in medium format worlds, they are Legend. 
on S, they are just another lenses with decent speed at f2-f2.8 and good rendering throughout the frame. 
 

SL summicron are great as good as they can be, and will give Leica S a fight or a win if you are talking about pixel or resolution per Sensor area but that is not a news to me. I did see that with OTUS and D850 a while ago. So was Z7 with Nikkor S. I am sure Sony users will give you the same answer with A7R4 and 135 gm or Voigtlander 65/110 APO, so are Fuji GFX user with most of their newly designed glasses as well. 

SL2 shine with usability, IBIS, video and awesome set of glasses from L Mount so is resolution if that is the quality you ask for. having M glasses support is another huge selling point to me. It is the best MILC camera I ever used and still my favorite. S to me is totally different in this regard and have huge value to me personally. Usability with OVF and real focus ring are merits I personally value highly. Consistent house rendering cross focal are others. 

I am very open to different view point though and don’t expect anyone would agree to reach the same black or white answer given each have different priority. However want to throw different view point as I see the thread goes to one side.

If you fail to see the merits of S in your angle, I’d say S is maybe not for you and you will save lots of money and hassle LOL

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31 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

If you fail to see the merits of S in your angle, I’d say S is maybe not for you and you will save lots of money and hassle LOL

Oh, I see the merits of the S. Mark’s clients obviously love his S images and he’d be crazy to trade in his S3 for something else. Stuart really likes the ergonomics. Who wants to futz around with a camera system that doesn’t feel good in the hand? I have lots of S images that are simply gorgeous. The 100mm is sublime. You just have to razz things up sometimes because folks get way too serious about their paint brushes.

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13 minutes ago, John Smith said:

Oh, I see the merits of the S. Mark’s clients obviously love his S images and he’d be crazy to trade in his S3 for something else. Stuart really likes the ergonomics. Who wants to futz around with a camera system that doesn’t feel good in the hand? I have lots of S images that are simply gorgeous. The 100mm is sublime. You just have to razz things up sometimes because folks get way too serious about their paint brushes.

Who is way too serious? Not really LOL Used too many toys, past that long time ago. It is pure gear talking, most of gears nowdays if not all will do to make photography. I don’t have clients LOL but even I can’t differentiate final images if you shoot f8/f11 print 36 inch with S SL2 or A7R4 with good editing skill and I am picky. At wide open, I can certainly give it a try.

Just another opinion like anybody else here. I thought you want to know as you asked and not everyone have S and SL2. If not for healthy discussion, won’t even reply here.  Which part of bokeh you like 90mm over 120mm? I know this is personal, Just curious. 

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23 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

Just another opinion like anybody else here. I thought you want to know as you asked and not everyone have S and SL2. If not for healthy discussion, won’t even reply here.  Which part of bokeh you like 90mm over 120mm? I know this is personal, Just curious. 

Pull up @Chaemono's comparison of the 90SL and 120S and zoom in. The 120mm's out-of-focus area is a bit harsher. Not a big deal, really. But it does cut a bit against cinematic rendering. I do know this. Despite Stuart's love of S ergonomics, I favor the SL2's.  

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1 hour ago, John Smith said:

Pull up @Chaemono's comparison of the 90SL and 120S and zoom in. The 120mm's out-of-focus area is a bit harsher. Not a big deal, really. But it does cut a bit against cinematic rendering. I do know this. Despite Stuart's love of S ergonomics, I favor the SL2's.  

I see. Maybe I should download them and match clarity and contrast (very important) to compare.

S's grip is a little too big to hold for me. I slightly prefer SL2 in this regard as well, especially with IBIS, shooting SL2 is a lot easier to get good results. Ergonomically, S has its strength. It has straight forward control and having lost of real estate on the body with minimal dial and button, a huge plus in winter with glove. Having real focus ring is big for me as I simply prefer manual focus most of time, especially with S's OVF and sloppy AF speed and single point. 

120 has one of best bokeh IMHO. We might need more A/B comparison for different subject and background to claim victory. However, I do prefer its round bokeh highlight to the corner compare to strong cat eye of 90cron, that is very clear even in that small web size. so it is a easy win in my book already.  

As for sharpness, I compared it with 135APO Zeiss Milvus (one of best FF glasses) on SL2 on tripod, and I feel 120S is at least as sharp as Zeiss if not sharper at equivalent aperture, I personally don't need anything sharper than that, it way past my threshold. On S, this is a combo as a reference point judge against any competition IMHO though I feel other S glasses just as beautiful, not on paper or chat but final image. 

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Ergonomics is purely personal. In fact, every aspect of photography is purely personal. I went to the S system from a Phase One back on a tech cam, so it was a drop in both MP and lens sharpness (or contrast or acuity or whatever makes you go "DAMN!" Schneider and Rodenstock lenses are never included in sharpness comparisons for a good reason). But I was much happier with the S because my pictures were better and I used the camera much more often (not unrelated). And I had AF. And Macro. And the lenses were good at f/2.5 and didn't require f/11. And....

I *have* the GFX 100 and most of the GF lenses. They are mostly perfect. The corners of the GF 23 are sharper than the S 24. The GF 250/4 is a miracle. I don't care. I still prefer the output from the S. 

I have nothing bad to say about the SL optics. They are also perfect, and I like their character more than the Fujis, but I don't care for the ergonomics of the system. I'll sell the body and the three zooms as soon as they come home from long-term loan. Or throw them in a bag with the S(007) and see how much of an S3 they get me 🤣.

Edited by mgrayson3
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23 minutes ago, mgrayson3 said:

I was much happier with the S because my pictures were better and I used the camera much more often

I swapped from a Phase One P65+ (60MP) to the 006. The ergonomics did it for me; I've never felt so 'at one' with a camera system before.

The 006 with the tiny Pentax 645 A 75mm is an amazingly small walkabout kit. The 75mm (all of £155!) performs surprisingly well, too:-

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2 hours ago, mgrayson3 said:

I have nothing bad to say about the SL optics. They are also perfect, and I like their character more than the Fujis, but I don't care for the ergonomics of the system. I'll sell the body and the three zooms as soon as they come home from long-term loan. Or throw them in a bag with the S(007) and see how much of an S3 they get me 🤣.

Whether we’re talking about the S or the SL, or even the M, Leica does something unique about the optics. As Peter Karbe said in one video, lenses aren’t all about MTF graphs. I’m putting the S007 and the 100mm in the bag today.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb John Smith:

Whether we’re talking about the S or the SL, or even the M, Leica does something unique about the optics. As Peter Karbe said in one video, lenses aren’t all about MTF graphs. I’m putting the S007 and the 100mm in the bag today.

The 100mm is superb.

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I own the 35, 50 and 90 APO SLs ... sometimes I like their look, sometimes it is too clinical. The 35 APO SL is so perfect that I sometimes think it lacks character. It really is tricky. Not sure someone can relate. Maybe it is the fact of being accustomed to imperfections which makes perfection somehow something to get accustomed to. I think with longer lenses the effect is not that pronounced as you have all the bokeh and OOF areas to play with ....

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On 5/12/2020 at 12:41 PM, decurion99 said:

I own the 35, 50 and 90 APO SLs ... sometimes I like their look, sometimes it is too clinical. The 35 APO SL is so perfect that I sometimes think it lacks character. It really is tricky. Not sure someone can relate. Maybe it is the fact of being accustomed to imperfections which makes perfection somehow something to get accustomed to. I think with longer lenses the effect is not that pronounced as you have all the bokeh and OOF areas to play with ....

Yes, this is a long-running debate. But if you want smoother and perhaps more "3D" rendering (especially at F2.8-5.6) then you can get a Summicron M 35 v4 and use it via adapter. The SL lenses are so perfect that they can become boring in their perfection. Many artists intentionally seek to insert "imperfection" in their work, to make it more "complete" (or more "perfect", perhaps). But where else is development supposed to go, other than more "perfection"? Luckily we have the adapters in the SL system to explore 70 years of Leica optics, and really great lenses in the S system, that bridge the gap between perfection and character better than any other lenses out there.

Edited by albireo_double
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  • 1 month later...

First test shot with the 70 Summarit-S. Opened in Preview, not touched, and exported as TIFF. No DNG this time but this is what the file looks like with the stock profile out of camera. Rich, accurate colors without over the top greens, and very natural skin tones. If I keep the S3, then it'll be because the files require very little work in post. It was shot with EV -1

Less compressed JPEG here:  https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-JkgxSt/

 

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ISO 200 f/2.5 @1/4000 sec.
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