How Do You get Drying Marks Off a Film ?

[robert_parker]

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Hi Everyone

I've just got a film back from a develop and scan, with apparent processing problems - I wondered if those with more experience might tell me what I'm looking at - are these drying marks on the negative, or a (Noritsu) scanner problem?

If the problem is that the negs haven't been dried correctly and marks are showing during the scan, is there any way of getting the marks off the negatives ?

Thanks in advance for your comments

(for info camera is 11f Red Dial in great condition, 3,5 Red Scale Elmar the same, Fison hood in place, film is XP2 C41 processed)

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Edited March 17, 2020 by robert_parker

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Hallo,

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[robert_parker]

Just as an additional sample, different lens (modern Summilux 1.4 LTM), same camera, same scanning batch: 

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[ianman]

I've never seen marks like those before. I do get marks like you have on the second scan, upper left corner. You can remove that by rubbing softy with a damp soft cloth. Sorry, I can't help with the other marks.

[farnz]

So that's why you carry the window pane and spray bottle with you everywhere! 😎

I've never seen this effect before either.  I was going to suggest that it might have been a bad batch of XP2 because the blobs are roughly equidistant but the 'runs' in the first and third pictures make that unlikely.  Are the marks on the negatives too?

Pete.

[robert_parker]

59 minutes ago, farnz said:

So that's why you carry the window pane and spray bottle with you everywhere! 😎

 

..always comes in handy... 😉

I can't see any marks on the negs, though my viewing conditions are far from ideal - the film was in date and hadn't been stored badly as far as I can tell - the shop has offered me a rescan and I might well take it up to see if that resolves the problem

If it was hand developed and traditional chemistry I might have said bad agitation and that the marks were due to bubbles or uneven action of the dev but the C41 process used by the shop should make that unlikely

Edited March 18, 2020 by robert_parker

[Pyrogallol]

Usually if the drying marks are on the back of the negatives just breath on the back and wipe them off, but those spots don’t look like drying marks.

Edited March 18, 2020 by Pyrogallol

[Ouroboros]

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I would take up the offer of a rescan, but it is a processing problem.  Your film has not been dried properly.  Since the lab have probably cut and sleeved your negs, it probably isn't possible  for them to wash and dry the film again. It might be possible to carefully clean the marks off the negatives with a microfibre cloth if the marks are on the non-emulsion side, but take care not to scratch the film.

If you have a strip of negs that aren't too important, you could try washing and drying the film again yourself and then re-scanning the film.  

Since the lab have screwed up here, I think you should at least be entitled to a refund and replacement film. 

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[robert_parker]

13 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I would take up the offer of a rescan, but it is a processing problem.  Your film has not been dried properly.  Since the lab have probably cut and sleeved your negs, it probably isn't possible  for them to wash and dry the film again. It might be possible to carefully clean the marks off the negatives with a microfibre cloth if the marks are on the non-emulsion side, but take care not to scratch the film.

If you have a strip of negs that aren't too important, you could try washing and drying the film again yourself and then re-scanning the film.  

Since the lab have screwed up here, I think you should at least be entitled to a refund and replacement film. 

Thanks very much for this - it's consistent with my own initial thoughts, albeit subjective ones on my part - as it happens the film hasn't been cut, so I'm taking it that one possible solution might be to wet and re-dry the film and hope that makes a difference.

I have taken the opportunity to check the film but without the right light and magnification, whilst I can see that there are some marks on the non-emulsion side of the film, I can't confirm that what we are seeing is resident on the negative but it certainly seems that what we're seeing looks like marks from water left on the surface of the negs.

Edited March 18, 2020 by robert_parker

[Stealth3kpl]

41 minutes ago, robert_parker said:

but without the right light and magnification

Try peering through a 50mm lens.

I would soak the strip (on a development reel) in distilled water with photoflow for a few minutes then squeegee gently with you fingers that have soaked in the same solution, then peg up to dry.

Pete

Edited March 18, 2020 by Stealth3kpl

[robert_parker]

3 hours ago, Stealth3kpl said:

Try peering through a 50mm lens.

I would soak the strip (on a development reel) in distilled water with photoflow for a few minutes then squeegee gently with you fingers that have soaked in the same solution, then peg up to dry.

Pete

Thanks Pete - that was the sort of thing I was really looking for - a method of dealing with it that I can try myself

Edited March 19, 2020 by robert_parker

[eilert anders]

If the problem is contamination of the negative from improper washing, you should be able to see the contamination with a magnifing glass and looking at the back of the negative at various angles.  In one of your examples, there appear to be running marks in addition to the "dots".

If you see contamination, try washing the negative in two consecutive washes with distilled water.  Then dry without removing the water drops on the negative.  The usual culprit in cases like this is the use of a washing aid, such as Photoflow, for the final rinse.

[eilert anders]

After thinking it over, I advise you to wash with a rinse aid such as Photo Flow, which is essentially soap, then rinse in tap water, and finish with the two baths of distilled water.

The dots look like out of focus droplets of water on a window, so thsy are probably on the back of the negative or on the surface of the glass pressure plate.  Examine the surface of the pressure plate too. 

[Borge H]

If you develop black and white you get drying stains if you not add some wetting agent in the final water rinse and have hard water. I usually add some drops of mild hand wash in the final rinse water, it makes the water leave the film fast without stains.

You can also use some alcohol on a clean cloth and rub it carefully on the blank side of the film (not the emulsion side!) where the stains usually is. It is a very effective method to clean the film from stains and hard sitting dust before scanning. It is quicker than rinsing the film again.

[Paulus]

Robbert, could it be, that your rinsing water was cooler than your developing water? If the film " frightens" of the cold water , it could get Craquelé? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[robert_parker]

1 hour ago, Paulus said:

Robbert, could it be, that your rinsing water was cooler than your developing water? If the film " frightens" of the cold water , it could get Craquelé? 

It's hard to say - the film was professionally developed and scanned by a reputable shop in London however I think they were having problems at the time with staff sickness, so that a rigorous process might not have been followed.  I've stored the film safely and will come back to it in a while with a view to scanning it myself and establishing if the marks are actually on the film and if so what they are, or if for instance if they were on the platen of the scanner, if it hadn't been wiped down properly during the process.

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[250swb]

On 11/5/2020 at 10:37 PM, robert_parker said:

It's hard to say - the film was professionally developed and scanned by a reputable shop in London however I think they were having problems at the time with staff sickness, so that a rigorous process might not have been followed.  I've stored the film safely and will come back to it in a while with a view to scanning it myself and establishing if the marks are actually on the film and if so what they are, or if for instance if they were on the platen of the scanner, if it hadn't been wiped down properly during the process.

I think I could imagine that maybe some glass surface has been rubbed over with a cleaning solution and it's dried quickly and not been buffed off. They look encouragingly out of focus compared with the subject matter. If it was drying marks on the film I would have expected to see them a bit further apart and more in focus.

[Martin B]

I found a couple things critical to avoid water drying marks on film strips:

1. Rinse rolled film on development reel after development, fixing, and washing well with regular tap water under the sink. 

2. Shake the reel and remove most of the water which is stuck on the film inside the reel.

3. Rinse reel with film in 300-500 ml dist. water. I normally wash the outer part of the film on the reel first, then I add some dist. water inside from the end of the film and from top and bottom of the reel. 

4. Shake the reel again and try to shake off most of the droplets stuck outside and inside. 

5. Open the reel and hang film to dry. I did this method for quite some time without shaking the reel, and always still had a few water spots on the dried film. After shaking droplets off, they are all gone. It also helps to humidify the air by for example turning on the shower for a few minutes before hanging the film inside a bathroom to dry (also close all forced air latches in the room). This will lower electrostatic dust adhesion on the film significantly. 

[Martin B]

On 4/30/2020 at 10:53 AM, eilert anders said:

After thinking it over, I advise you to wash with a rinse aid such as Photo Flow, which is essentially soap, then rinse in tap water, and finish with the two baths of distilled water.

The dots look like out of focus droplets of water on a window, so thsy are probably on the back of the negative or on the surface of the glass pressure plate.  Examine the surface of the pressure plate too. 

Photo Flow is an urban myth to me. It might be beneficial in areas with hard water though (I have soft water). I tested Photo Flow, and I got in the end more marks on the film than without using it. I found the soap much harder to come off the film than anything else. I am not using it at all at this point and just use dist water instead (see my comment above). 

[fatihayoglu]

Try salad spinner, works like a charm

[farnz]

13 minutes ago, fatihayoglu said:

Try salad spinner, works like a charm

An excellent idea!  

(Is it best to take the salad out first? )

Pete.