xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Share #1 Posted March 15, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) As title, any info regarding the bit rate for the sensor output? Thanks in advance. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 15, 2020 Posted March 15, 2020 Hi xiaubauu2009, Take a look here M10M = 12bit or 14bit?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
frame-it Posted March 15, 2020 Share #2 Posted March 15, 2020 22 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said: As title, any info regarding the bit rate for the sensor output? Thanks in advance. did you check rawdigger ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted March 15, 2020 No idea. What is the claim from Leica?am interested in it if it is no longer the 12bit like the 246. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted March 15, 2020 Share #4 Posted March 15, 2020 12bit Raw values go upto 4096 REAL 16bit values max at 65000~ [iProcessor.imgdata.color.maximum = 64508] from the guide>> "For a 12-bit camera (when we say 12-bit we mean the camera has a 12-bit analog-to-digital converter, ADC) RAW data for every pixel can assume values ranging from 0 (the pixel was not affected by light in any way or the effect was below the lower limit of the range) to 212 -1 = 4095 (the RAW data for the pixel has been clipped, or the pixel being saturated - that is, the pixel charge is above the upper limit of the range). In real life a 12-bit camera may not reach 4095 maximum even for a grossly overexposed shot; also, some cameras we consider to be 12-bit may have maximum values slightly larger than 4095. Those are by design, depending on particular hardware and firmware implementations. Even for the same sensor various camera makes and models can have different maximum values." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share #5 Posted March 15, 2020 1 minute ago, frame-it said: 12bit Raw values go upto 4096 REAL 16bit values max at 65000~ [iProcessor.imgdata.color.maximum = 64508] from the guide>> "For a 12-bit camera (when we say 12-bit we mean the camera has a 12-bit analog-to-digital converter, ADC) RAW data for every pixel can assume values ranging from 0 (the pixel was not affected by light in any way or the effect was below the lower limit of the range) to 212 -1 = 4095 (the RAW data for the pixel has been clipped, or the pixel being saturated - that is, the pixel charge is above the upper limit of the range). In real life a 12-bit camera may not reach 4095 maximum even for a grossly overexposed shot; also, some cameras we consider to be 12-bit may have maximum values slightly larger than 4095. Those are by design, depending on particular hardware and firmware implementations. Even for the same sensor various camera makes and models can have different maximum values." Ya, I know the difference between the bit info, higher the better, more gradient to the grey and I know what a monochrome sensor limitations are and from using the M9 Mono and the M246, I really don't care for the CMOS files... I put it to the 12bit Sensor info, maybe I am wrong, but there's no punch to it... after using it for close to a year I sold it in anticipation for this M10M to come out... so... I notice somewhere that it is now a 14bit AD... just need a solid confirm before I pour another 8grand into it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted March 15, 2020 Share #6 Posted March 15, 2020 1 minute ago, xiaubauu2009 said: Ya, I know the difference between the bit info, higher the better, more gradient to the grey and I know what a monochrome sensor limitations are and from using the M9 Mono and the M246, I really don't care for the CMOS files... I put it to the 12bit Sensor info, maybe I am wrong, but there's no punch to it... after using it for close to a year I sold it in anticipation for this M10M to come out... so... I notice somewhere that it is now a 14bit AD... just need a solid confirm before I pour another 8grand into it... best to get a raw file, at the leica shop, open it and check. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share #7 Posted March 15, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just now, frame-it said: best to get a raw file, at the leica shop, open it and check. ohhh, that's right, let's go download some RAW. Thanks for the idea!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted March 15, 2020 Share #8 Posted March 15, 2020 by the way..this is my favorite "16bit" shot 😋 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307465-m10m-12bit-or-14bit/?do=findComment&comment=3931882'>More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted March 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, frame-it said: by the way..this is my favorite "16bit" shot 😋 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Haha, this one is perhaps not the best argument with 'higher bit is better' example, I was too carry away with it. Hahahahah. the blue was nuts. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share #10 Posted March 15, 2020 19 minutes ago, frame-it said: by the way..this is my favorite "16bit" shot 😋 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! by the way, I just used Rawdigger on the old M246 files... sadly, it's really 12bit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted March 15, 2020 Share #11 Posted March 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said: by the way, I just used Rawdigger on the old M246 files... sadly, it's really 12bit... 4 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said: by the way, I just used Rawdigger on the old M246 files... sadly, it's really 12bit... as expected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share #12 Posted March 15, 2020 3 minutes ago, frame-it said: as expected going through M10p, S007 files, they are both 16bit... so the CMOSIS sensor should have a higher bit rate? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted March 15, 2020 Share #13 Posted March 15, 2020 29 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said: going through M10p, S007 files, they are both 16bit... so the CMOSIS sensor should have a higher bit rate? technically yes..its also possible the hardware is expanding the file from 14bit to 16bit, the raw data from the sensor "has no bits" so to speak, its the AD converter that's built into the hardware that decides that..im sure 16bit needs a more powerful processor...so... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmknoble Posted March 15, 2020 Share #14 Posted March 15, 2020 We have had this same discussion in the S section of the forum. 16bit DNG files are a container. They can fit the RAW data from 8bit, 12bit, 14bit or 16bit (or others) inside the container, but it does not mean the data is there. What I can say after owning the M9M, the M246 and now the M10, is that the M10 has more information in the shadows than any other M series camera I have used. It comes close to the data in the S007 (in my opinion, no specific tests). I have now posted images of a 17"x22" print from an ISO 50,000 shot taken with the M10M and close ups of the print, on instagram. In terms of dynamic range, it is another step up like the M246 was from the M9M. I understand the RAW files always seem a little flatter from the CMOS than the CCD. However, the data is all there and proper contrast adjustments can make the file just as nice as the CMOS. Here is an example (dark image on purpose). I'll post an ISO 50,000, which you will see has no banding. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307465-m10m-12bit-or-14bit/?do=findComment&comment=3932010'>More sharing options...
davidmknoble Posted March 15, 2020 Share #15 Posted March 15, 2020 (edited) This is ISO 50,000 from the M10M, with the Noctilux 1.0, version 1 lens (Yellow 8 filter). Notice how there is no banding in the image. Lightroom export. (click to view full size for better display) Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 15, 2020 by davidmknoble Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307465-m10m-12bit-or-14bit/?do=findComment&comment=3932018'>More sharing options...
davidmknoble Posted March 15, 2020 Share #16 Posted March 15, 2020 So to answer the OP's original question, the M10M manual indicates the DNG has 14bits of color depth. Note that this is the same as the S007 sensor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmknoble Posted March 15, 2020 Share #17 Posted March 15, 2020 This is an M10M image at ISO 160, essentially imported into lightroom and exported for the forum. As always, clicking the image to see full view is typically best. I think it shows the 'punch' of the CCD M9M, in this case, out of the camera. Others may disagree. With some tweaking in lightroom I think you could obtain the look, but again just my opinion. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307465-m10m-12bit-or-14bit/?do=findComment&comment=3932059'>More sharing options...
SrMi Posted March 15, 2020 Share #18 Posted March 15, 2020 1 hour ago, davidmknoble said: So to answer the OP's original question, the M10M manual indicates the DNG has 14bits of color depth. Note that this is the same as the S007 sensor. "color" depth may be the wrong term ;-). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidmknoble Posted March 15, 2020 Share #19 Posted March 15, 2020 3 hours ago, SrMi said: "color" depth may be the wrong term ;-). It is the term the manual uses. I can accept it because it is really referencing light values, which is what the color sensors do, just under a blue, red or green filter.. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted March 16, 2020 Share #20 Posted March 16, 2020 8 hours ago, davidmknoble said: 16bit DNG files are a container. They can fit the RAW data from 8bit, 12bit, 14bit or 16bit (or others) inside the container, but it does not mean the data is there. you are absolutely right..but the Raw histogram will show the "range" of that actual data. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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