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The S3 pricing is a mistake


setuporg

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So the ridiculous hike on the new 007 to $20K was to foreshadow the S3 pricing at $19K.  That makes no sense compared to X1Dii and shows that Leica wants to target those already heavily invested in the S and ready to pay for a minor upgrade, or for whom the increased resolution justifies the upgrade.  It remains to be seen if the AF is significantly better.  If not, this is a non-starter.  In all cases, a much better price would be under $10K.  That would at least make folks think and could welcome newcomers to the system.  Leica, if you are listening: drop the US price to $9,500 at least for a while as a promotion and see what happens.

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I agree that the pricing is high (for me!), but I don't think it's a mistake. Leica has always maintained that the S is for professionals, and as such it's not overly expensive. Think of how much a landscaper pays for a truck and tools, you could buy a full S system for just the 5-year depreciation on an F-150.

The good news is that Leica usually finds a way to eventually sell to us amateurs at lower prices, whether it be "demo" cameras and lenses, or special deals. I think that they may have run-out of S-007 cameras a bit too soon. They were relatively cheap for a while, but then they hiked the price back up when the S3 was delayed.

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As a customer i am with you. However I am also tired of "reducing cost at any price"...I think a DSLR is just more expensive to produce.

My wish would be to not reduce the price but on the other side put some more new technology in the camera. Improve the AF system (maybe it has happend?), give it a nicer display,... etc.

We all want to earn good money for our job, so why Leica emploeys should not. 

 

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I don’t think they expect to sell many of these and am not sure if dropping the price to 10k range would change that.

Once it goes EVF we might see such a move if Hasselblad and Fuji keep pushing mid format sensors.

Keep in mind that the prices on the lenses would still keep amateurs at bay and you need this segment for volume.

Jk

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Setuporg,  I understand your point about the price vs improvements for the S3.  But with Leica they design, build and operate to a different drum and market niche.  The S system was intended from the start  and continues for professional niche that needs a top quality MF camera.  It is not for the "masses" and I don't expect to ever be such in the future.  The interesting thing I always find about photographers who buy into Leica, they often complain about cost when the company has always produced expensive, hand made cameras and lenses.  IMO, the lenses are the best in the world.  The other aspect I find both interesting and amusing, people never complain about the cost of Phase One cameras/backs or the higher end Hasselblad cameras/backs.  For those who simply don't see value for money or don't like the features offered, then perhaps it is time for them to look at other brands that meet their needs and wallets expectations.  Personally, my clients always vote with their wallets and simply will not buy my photographs created with other MF cameras.  They are very happy with the results and for me, that is good enough.  r/ Mark

PS...I look into my crystal ball and see a Leica S3 with your name on it and you reaching for you black AMEX card..like I just did...(predictions are usually 90% accurate)...Wink

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3 hours ago, setuporg said:

So the ridiculous hike on the new 007 to $20K was to foreshadow the S3 pricing at $19K.  That makes no sense compared to X1Dii and shows that Leica wants to target those already heavily invested in the S and ready to pay for a minor upgrade, or for whom the increased resolution justifies the upgrade.  It remains to be seen if the AF is significantly better.  If not, this is a non-starter.  In all cases, a much better price would be under $10K.  That would at least make folks think and could welcome newcomers to the system.  Leica, if you are listening: drop the US price to $9,500 at least for a while as a promotion and see what happens.

if you already have the S lenses, and trade in an S007 it might be ok for many

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3 hours ago, setuporg said:

So the ridiculous hike on the new 007 to $20K was to foreshadow the S3 pricing at $19K.  That makes no sense compared to X1Dii and shows that Leica wants to target those already heavily invested in the S and ready to pay for a minor upgrade, or for whom the increased resolution justifies the upgrade.  It remains to be seen if the AF is significantly better.  If not, this is a non-starter.  In all cases, a much better price would be under $10K.  That would at least make folks think and could welcome newcomers to the system.  Leica, if you are listening: drop the US price to $9,500 at least for a while as a promotion and see what happens.

For the list of upgrade, I agree with you. 
it has the same less than 1M LCD and last generation processor, similar AF if I heard this all right and 14 bit ADC now that first time show up in data sheet. ( I don’t want drag deep into this for now to do technical discuss but just saying I understand what that means because my job.)

it is unheard of upgrade like this. Price was the hope, now I would say time will tell. Sorry for the negativity. S007 is fine, it can be used for another 5 years. 

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2 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

The other aspect I find both interesting and amusing, people never complain about the cost of Phase One cameras/backs or the higher end Hasselblad cameras/backs.

Take a look on getdpi, many people moving away from Phase One....  Still the best quality, but too expensive and support / features not happening.

john

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It makes more sense if you realize that Leica is likely not really looking for new customers for the S system. There is a lot of evidence that it is at the end of its life cycle, and no longer positioned in the market in a way that allows it to effectively compete with much cheaper options. I am in no way saying that it is a bad system...it is one of the best. But it would be extremely difficult to pull in many more buyers (new buyers...used does not really help Leica so much). Rather than just shut it down, they gave us an updated sensor and a few improvements while keeping their same body. I would have preferred a few more improvements (4k external recording via HDMI, a better screen etc), but in general we are getting a camera that is apparently nearly double the megapixels with better color and better high ISO for less money than the previous model, along with trade in offers for existing users. They are not a charity, and I really think this constitutes Leica throwing us existing users a bone. I agree, it makes no sense compared to the X1DII, but it is not being compared to that. It is for people already in the system and then perhaps a special few converts. 

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Interesting comments made by all.  IMO, the S system is a very mature considering how it evolved with the fielding of three new cameras and superb lens line up, to include the CS lenses that took a while to resolve.  Granted there was the AF motor issue, but that has been fixed.  Leica being a small and niche based company continues to design and make the best optical lenses in the world.  The cameras that have come most recently such as the SL II, M10-M, soon M10-R and new SL and M lenses show it continues to design and build superior hand-made cameras and lenses to meet photographers needs.  Based on my past conversations and emails with Leica senior management over the years, clearly they are driven to making the best cameras and lenses for their market niche.  I also know they are looking forward to developing a mirrorless S camera.  What I always find amazing, photographers seem to always want the "next" whatever...more MPs, more flawless lenses...more...more...more.  Rather than going out and creating superb photographs with what they presently own, they think the next camera, lens or gadget will make better photographs.  In reality, these "things" don't really do that...it is always the photographers creativity and vision that make the photograph with the camera and lens being a tool to enable capturing their vision and moment in time.  IMO and like I tell my occasional students, "Concentrate on the content of your photographs...not the tools".  Go create superb and enduring photographs that make the viewer; "Stop, Look, Think and if possible Feel something about that moment in time".  If photographers spent more time on improving their photographs content, they might find happiness with their craft or hobby rather than wasting time "wanting" for the next camera or lens.  Last, people forget Leica is a company that loves to surprise and like many people and for me personally;  I always enjoy Leica surprises.  r/ Mark

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so, the S3 is only a 14bit....  didn:t realise that is the case. I always thought the S is always 16bit. maybe they change that in the CMOS S...

Anyway, I think they price it right as this is the target audience of their camera, professional or not. It:s going to be a small volume sales and they need the high price to maintain.

Most pro friends of mine got into S for a short amount of period before off loading it during the AF fiasco. Hence I don:t believe there is that much pro out there using this system, a) due to unreliability, b) high depreciation and the gauging service price here at least in China. c) highly capable alternatives. 

S3 is really still relevant for current S user cause switching to another system will mean a higher cost to get eveyrthing new as S lens is really unsupported by another system even though it:s an SLR design with longer flange, no chance to adapt to the those EVF mirrorless MF System. So, I think this will keep the S line kind of afloat for awhile.

 

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Hmm. I guess if I took the same approach at my favorite AMG car dealer, IWC watch dealer and Krieghoff gun dealer I’d get a square kick in the pants.

 Give me a break. No one held a gun to your head and demanded, “buy Leica!”

Leicas are handmade and built to last a lifetime. The Leica folks deserve to eat well too. These aren’t Fuji’s after all.

 

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At $9500 Leica would have great demand, perhaps too much.  If this is the last hurrah for the S then Leica will cement a reputation of abandonment.  $19,000 looks crazy expensive given the competition, but Leica is always expensive.  $9500, in three years on the used market if history repeats itself, or you can buy the camera now, use it for three years, then sell it, that's $9500, kinda like a lease.  

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53 minutes ago, darylgo said:

At $9500 Leica would have great demand, perhaps too much.  If this is the last hurrah for the S then Leica will cement a reputation of abandonment.  $19,000 looks crazy expensive given the competition, but Leica is always expensive.  $9500, in three years on the used market if history repeats itself, or you can buy the camera now, use it for three years, then sell it, that's $9500, kinda like a lease.  

That's a very deep, and rather sad, insight...

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1 hour ago, darylgo said:

At $9500 Leica would have great demand, perhaps too much.  If this is the last hurrah for the S then Leica will cement a reputation of abandonment.  $19,000 looks crazy expensive given the competition, but Leica is always expensive.  $9500, in three years on the used market if history repeats itself, or you can buy the camera now, use it for three years, then sell it, that's $9500, kinda like a lease.  

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1 hour ago, frame-it said:

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1 hour ago, setuporg said:

That's a very deep, and rather sad, insight...

The lenses are priceless, I am so happy to own this system. The reality of digital bodies in all systems is steep price depreciation, while continuing to provide similar file quality as  purchased.  

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Darylgo,  I agree with you.  The lenses are truly priceless.  It is somewhat sad to see one can purchase previously owned, mint, S lenses for 1/2 price with updated motors.  These updated lenses are worth their weight in gold for IQ and rendering.  Plus they are weather sealed.  The S camera bodies depreciate like automobiles.  Simple fact of life with digital anything really.  But whether one owns a S2, S006 or S007, the files and subsequent photographs make the S system a class by itself.  The S3 camera has a new 60 MP sensor created by Leica solely for the camera.  I am sure due to low numbers of cameras projected for production, makes the cost of the new sensor quite high and they have to recoup the R&D for the one of a kind sensor that can only be used in the S3 and no other camera, etc..  Yes, the body is not new, just the sensor and board.  People also forget the cost of the previous S camera bodies were in the mid-twenties ($20-25K USD) 12 years ago.  Is the S3 worth, $18K and change?...Only the photographer needing or wanting the S3 can answer that question.  Leica seems to think professional photographers will pay that amount.  When compared to what Phase One and Hasselblad charge for their high end backs and cameras that also depreciate considerably, the S3 might be worth the $$$.  Ultimately, the clients who vote with their wallets will also drive the professional photographer decision.  For the rest of the mere mortals, they will continue to whine, wish and want a lower priced S camera...it simply won't happen.  r/ Mark

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The spec table is not reliable. The S3 is not anymore limited to 2min max long exposure time but to 8. Wouldn't be surprised by other inaccuracies (14 bits ?).

Anyway, seeing those specs I would really like to put a screwdriver into my S007 sensor and ask Leica to replace it with an S3 one...

Offering a sensor upgrade program that's what I call throwing a bone to their customers !

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Mark, it’s a great time to add to lens collections with prices as they are. Anyone interested, Leica in LA will be releasing the zoom and several others soon from the required wait time on used.  My understanding of the system from visiting two stores is that it is more amateur than professional support, many physicians and in one case a Buddhist monk. The large number of pristine equipment available used and the price depreciation would support that.  
 

SaW, there was a rumor about 18 months back that Leica would upgrade the 007 to the new sensor, as told to me by the local rep.  I don’t hold my breath any longer when hearing information from the crystal ball regarding Leica.  I’d rather shoot. 

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