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The S3 pricing is a mistake


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8 hours ago, ZHNL said:

There are three case:

16bit ADC native with more than 14 bit DR performance. Sony 100M or phase sensor belong to this group. I thought 007 was from here as well and hope S3 is indeed here. (There might be chance of typo still)

14 bit ADC and digital process to 16 bIt. There is no way such file will have more than 14 stop DR, unless file be down sampled to less pixel for final print target smaller than full resolution sensor. X1D, GFX50S/R belong to this group. S007 and S3 might be here as well and I do hope it is wrong.

16 bit ADC native with less than 14 bit DR performance. Old MFDB and S006 should belong to this group. Most discussion happen here because people question the purpose to using 16bit ADC for analog signal has less than 14 bit performance. (Quantization noise is way less than sensor noise so what is the point to add 2 bit of noise.) however, I personally think this is preferred/expensive approach than 2nd, I believe there will be benefit from this approach. In audio, people can hear signal well below noise floor just one of example. 
 

Either this (S3) was a typo, or Leica did not disclosure info for 007 which should have be done IMO. Or simply 007 was 16 bit native but S3 is 14 bit now. Does this come from under powered processor or just sensor architecture? 
 

if S007 is indeed 14bit ADC, then DSP to 16 bit DNG file, it really should not be considered or documented as 16 bit color depth. It is a market BS or simply lie as X1D claimed. 
 

having said that, I would still say this will not be a purchase factor for me. I don’t buy S3 has nothing to do with this TBF.
 

The difference might be indeed small that is impossible or not easy to demonstrate. However, the hardware implementation will be totally different from cost point of view.  
 

Edit: Fuji didn’t claim they have 16 bits for 50s/50R. So they are not in 2nd group. 

That 50mp is always a 14bit A/D Chip. So even if you hae a 16bit file structure or whatever, it will only have 14bit info. Cheeky Hassy for marketing that. Fujifilm is the only one that ever stated that their sensor has only 14bit output., didnt eleaborate on the file structure.

I was worry when I got the GFX100 about the file structure issue that since Fuji is only writing.a 14bit files... won:t that 2 bit be lost? Idiot of me.

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albertknappmd

I cannot weigh in on the fairness of the price as we do not know the details of the initial and ongoing costs of research, development, manufacturing, marketing...  The market, namely us, will eventually decide. I would add one additional caveat to the brew.... Given the COVID 19 pandemic, Leica as well as all other companies world-wide will face many delays, hurdles, challenges and tribulations... I urge all of you to refrain from gripping too much regarding price, availability etc...

glenerrolrd

The comparison to Fuji is typical of a Japanese Consumer Products company .   Any specification that can easily be measured or defined is compared .  Examples MPs , pixel size etc. Almost none of which are particularly relevant to comparisons .   Image Quality is a good example ...DxO Mark does a good job of evaluating sensor performance and explains how attributes affect typical usage .  Portraits for example benefit from color depth which impacts your ability to define small graduations o

LeicaR10

Interesting comments made by all.  IMO, the S system is a very mature considering how it evolved with the fielding of three new cameras and superb lens line up, to include the CS lenses that took a while to resolve.  Granted there was the AF motor issue, but that has been fixed.  Leica being a small and niche based company continues to design and make the best optical lenses in the world.  The cameras that have come most recently such as the SL II, M10-M, soon M10-R and new SL and M lenses show

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I cannot weigh in on the fairness of the price as we do not know the details of the initial and ongoing costs of research, development, manufacturing, marketing... 

The market, namely us, will eventually decide.

I would add one additional caveat to the brew.... Given the COVID 19 pandemic, Leica as well as all other companies world-wide will face many delays, hurdles, challenges and tribulations... I urge all of you to refrain from gripping too much regarding price, availability etc... We will have to help Leica get through this dreadful situation by supporting them to the hilt and being patient...

 

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7 hours ago, albertknappmd said:

I cannot weigh in on the fairness of the price as we do not know the details of the initial and ongoing costs of research, development, manufacturing, marketing... 

The market, namely us, will eventually decide.

I would add one additional caveat to the brew.... Given the COVID 19 pandemic, Leica as well as all other companies world-wide will face many delays, hurdles, challenges and tribulations... I urge all of you to refrain from gripping too much regarding price, availability etc... We will have to help Leica get through this dreadful situation by supporting them to the hilt and being patient...

I could not agree more @albertknappmd.  At the end of the day, simple economics will govern the price - demand and supply, clearly higher demand than the supply will offer, so the price will be higher which lowers demand back down to the actual supply.  I think that is what Leica has done in the past from new product launch, to mature product, to declining as new model is developed.

I agree it is important to support Leica as one thing we all seem to share is a passion for their equipment.   Things will be difficult before they get better....

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43 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

I could not agree more @albertknappmd.  At the end of the day, simple economics will govern the price - demand and supply, clearly higher demand than the supply will offer, so the price will be higher which lowers demand back down to the actual supply.  I think that is what Leica has done in the past from new product launch, to mature product, to declining as new model is developed.

I agree it is important to support Leica as one thing we all seem to share is a passion for their equipment.   Things will be difficult before they get better....

you are correct... things will be difficult before they are better.

We must approach the ongoing crisis with coolness, candor, courage and... common sense....

Albert

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12 minutes ago, albertknappmd said:

This was painful to listen too.... Proof that everyone is an EXPERT in their own mind...

Albert

I was not going to listen to it, but @albertknappmd you peaked my interest.  Now, I wish I had not!  He is a prime example of why there is no toilet paper on the shelves today.  Misinformed and spreading manure as fact.

The worst of it is, @Chaemono, if you are not as familiar with the camera, how do you tell what reviews provide you with good information?  Thanks for posting this, it is a good example of a review that has poor information.  I think it will be a month or two before some real reviews can be released...

 

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10 hours ago, albertknappmd said:

We will have to help Leica get through this dreadful situation by supporting them to the hilt and being patient.

Sure.....being patient.

But supporting them to the hilt....how is that supposed to manifest itself........let’s all go out and splash 19k on an s3?

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Jan1985 & Albertknappmd,  I agree with you.  It is interesting to watch or read articles from pundits who know little to nothing about the S3 or even other cameras. The beta testers are able to say what they can and still might be limited due to NDAs as they had prototypes.  For me, until I get to personally take a S3 for a test drive at a Leica Store, I take the "experts" articles/videos with a grain of salt or even as pap depending on who wrote or spoke about it.  IMO, Leica wouldn't have put the camera into production unless they believed the camera was going to sell.  My three Leica Stores all have waiting lists from pros who want the camera.  My latest discussion with one store, they are expecting 1 S3 late this month.  As people have said, the virus might have caused supply chain or production issues.  Interesting though, the one dealer said they are getting a lot of M10-Ms coming in...so the Leica elves are still working.  As for the cost of the S3, pros will lease/rent or buy and write the cost off.  Others will simply buy the camera because they can and will do so for whatever their reasons are for doing so.  Strange, some people will go out and never whine about the cost of a high end Phase One or Hasselblad cameras or backs that depreciate just as fast if not faster.  Last, if cost is an issue remember it is only money and one can't take it with you to the other side...although many have tried, none that I know have succeeded.  So get the black AMEX card out and go buy a S3 and enjoy creating beautiful and enduring photographs. r/ Mark

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