M240 or SL ..again

[northernlights]

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Hi,

it is ironic that i am posting this. i have owned and sold 3 M240’s and 1 MP-240 (Last weekend). I didn’t lose money. I like the compactness although the M’s are not light.  I have been looking at the SL for a number of years and am so close to getting one (can be tomorrow). I visited the leica boutique and played with the SL with my M lens and cheap Fotasy M-TL adaptor ($25 in Amazon). Photos were sharp. I was impressed with the EVF and I will get more hits and less misses. Framing is also easier. i know the SL is just 187g heavier than the M. Yet, each and everytime, it was the size and seemingly lack of connection that holds me back. I have read every forum, review i can lay my eyes on in Steve Huff, reviews, this forum, etc

what is wrong with me? 

which shall i get?

I would like the M10 at some point. But it is not within my budget. I reckon i will be able to get one when M11 comes about. Given also I am a so so photographer. Not the exceptional kind like some of you. 

Background . 
I shoot mainly street photography and have a couple of paid assignments like interior (When i shoot interiors, i use the live view with magnification a lot.), weddings. Otherwise, I possibly belong to the under-utilising group as I have other commitments like work, exercise and my young family. Photography is probably 2-3 times a year over trips that are about 6-7 days each. Over the last few years,  I have done Thailand, India (Amritsar, Kerala, Varanasi, Jodphur Rajesthan, Delhi) and am heading for Kolkata in June if the covid-19 situation does not get out of control. 

The lenses I own are 35 Lux FLE, 28 Elmarit v2, 90 APO Summicron, and Canon 50 f1.4 LTM. I also have a Nikon AFS 300 f4 for occasional landscapes, birding and wildlife using live view. I also have the kipon macro M-M adaptor for macro. I will not buy SL lenses. I owned and sold the 24-90 i used on the Leica T which I also sold. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by northernlights

[tom0511]

Why did you sell the Ms and why did you want to go to the SL?

I would say with the SL you gain more room to precisly focus fast and longer lenses, you get more accurate framing. You loose the optical viewfinder and part of the M-simplicity.

I use both but if I use M lenses up to 50mm I prefer the M, and if I use the SL-system I use ut with AF lenses mainly.

I think I understand what you mean with "lack of connection". EVF-as good as they are- do not really help in regards of connection.

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[northernlights]

30 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Why did you sell the Ms and why did you want to go to the SL?

I would say with the SL you gain more room to precisly focus fast and longer lenses, you get more accurate framing. You loose the optical viewfinder and part of the M-simplicity.

I use both but if I use M lenses up to 50mm I prefer the M, and if I use the SL-system I use ut with AF lenses mainly.

I think I understand what you mean with "lack of connection". EVF-as good as they are- do not really help in regards of connection.

Thanks Tom. 
I meant I don’t feel connected with the SL. It’s the same feeling as in the days I was using Canon DSLR’s. Then the Fuji Xpro-1, XE1 qnd then the Sony A7ii. I just don’t have the same connection with the tool as in an M strangely. There is something about the rangefinder patch, the focussing and lack of intricate controls like AF points, c-AF, and in it’s place, you anticipate motion and shoot. But i also missed many moments without AF. In the SL, i find similar simplicity. It about getting over the bulkiness brick look with the M lenses and possibly loss of discreetness. But anything below 28mm is hard to frame with the OVF framelines. But there’s always the live view. 

Oh dear, somebody please tell me to just go get the SL please. Lol. 

 

[analog-digital]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb tom0511:

I would say with the SL you gain more room to precisly focus fast ...

The manual focus ist the most exact an fastest focus you can have. I own in january the SL and old it after 2 or 3 weeks. It's to heavy and make no fun to shoot. Hard to say why.....

[tom0511]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb northernlights:

Thanks Tom. 
I meant I don’t feel connected with the SL. It’s the same feeling as in the days I was using Canon DSLR’s. Then the Fuji Xpro-1, XE1 qnd then the Sony A7ii. I just don’t have the same connection with the tool as in an M strangely. There is something about the rangefinder patch, the focussing and lack of intricate controls like AF points, c-AF, and in it’s place, you anticipate motion and shoot. But i also missed many moments without AF. In the SL, i find similar simplicity. It about getting over the bulkiness brick look with the M lenses and possibly loss of discreetness. But anything below 28mm is hard to frame with the OVF framelines. But there’s always the live view. 

Oh dear, somebody please tell me to just go get the SL please. Lol. 

 

Sorry but I have to say that you need another Leica M because it fits you

[tom0511]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb analog-digital:

The manual focus ist the most exact an fastest focus you can have. I own in january the SL and old it after 2 or 3 weeks. It's to heavy and make no fun to shoot. Hard to say why.....

AF is faster and more precise (In my opinion/experience), at least for anything non static.

Edited March 2, 2020 by tom0511

[Al Brown]

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It is the lure of the unknown.
You NEED to test the SL more thoroughly to see if it fits your needs. I think with your range of MF lenses a M10 with EVF would be perfect - you can get used ones at a reasonable price. I mean, the connection is there...

[Good To Be Retired]

10 hours ago, northernlights said:

Hi,

I have read every forum, review i can lay my eyes on in Steve Huff

what is wrong with me? 
 

Reading too much Steve Huff is potentially a factor 

 Anyone selling "Spirit Radios" for use in talking to the dead might be suspect in some regard. 

(nice images in your flicker account  )

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Edited March 2, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[Einst_Stein]

It seems the reason you like SL is about its immediate feedback that helps more hit and less miss. You like the EVZf on SL. But you are also not comfortable to rely on EVF only because it does not give you the same direct “connection” as of the oVF. This is controversial.

Since you do not like the auto stuffs on SL, I assume it is AF, I cannot see why M240 + EVF does not make you happy. What you want is to have both EVF and OVF.  ... OK, a good OVF and a good EVF.

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Einst_Stein

[northernlights]

Guys, I appreciate all of you spending time to reply and advise. 
It’s just one of those moments that decision swings wildly. One second it’s the SL and the next, it’s back to the familiarity and safety of the M240. My heart tells me to flirt with the SL. My head tells me about the size, the compatibility with the M lenses, Sean Reid, Jonathan Slack reviews and my own experiences. I am waiting for the day I can afford the M10P (when the M11 matures). 
History has proven the wisdom of following the head. 

[jaapv]

I think the SL looks too much like a "professional camera" to the general public, which is a drawback for street shooting.

[northernlights]

Thanks all. i might just follow the heart. 

[chasdfg]

I have owned the M240 for 5 years and picked up an SL earlier this year due to the falling prices. I was itching for a new camera, especially one which works well with M lenses. Prior to the SL purchase, I had bought a Sony and an EOS R, but my time with them didn't last very long (side note the EOS R is a very impressive camera - i was pleasantly surprised). I purchase most of my gear used and the M10P prices haven't dipped enough yet. I also personally feel that while I like the ISO dial, quiet shutter and slimmer body, the image quality differences are not as great as I would like them to be. Also, my M240 has little resale value. It is brassed all over so much so I have taken a sharpie and coloured over some of the brassing (anti-Kravitzing). This is another disincentive to sell the M240 and SL to buy an M10P.

Since my SL purchase I have barely touched the M240. The SL is refreshing to use. The menus are simple, the button layout is intuitive, the EVF is amazing. The shutter is very quiet and the colours are great. The camera has a very clean look to it and there's no harm in having something nice to look at when you're out and about. My main gripe about it have to do with having used the SL2 - the SL2 feels a lot better in my hands.

But I must add this: if I could choose one camera between the two, it'd be the M240. It does everything I could ask for in a camera and I know the I limit the camera's output more than the camera limits me. It may be a generation behind the M10 and several behind the latest Sony's (in terms of sensor tech), but is a perfect all rounder at a very good price point now. It does a very good job at being a digital Leica M.

The SL is 920g with the L-M adapter (or more?). It wouldn't be my top choice for travel. When I want to bring a small lens out (think 28cron, 50APO) I'd rather snap it onto the M240. 

The SL does a great job supplementing my M240, but it will never replace a rangefinder. There are many digital cameras with EVFs nowadays. Some play well with M lenses better than others, and I was (am?) very tempted by the Nikon Z7. But there are only so many digital rangefinders to choose from.

[jaeger]

Did you post this on SL forum?  I bet you'll get 50:50 result and back to the drawing board. 

[FrankF]

I am an M9 owner.  I currently use a Sony A7 family body with nativve lenses.  Ease of use, good user experience, low cost ( relatively only).

The M240 IS, RIGHT NOW, A $2,000 TO $2500 Camera.  It IS the sweet spot in the Leica lineup, for now.  24MP.  EVF capable ( the M9 is not capable of this).  It uses the existent M lenses in your stable.  Best glass in the world.  NO sensor issues ( My m9 has been fixed, but 6-8 months is a long time for not having a camera).

I am not going to comment on the issues of smeared/degraded corners, etc that occurs when you put an wide angle M lens on a Sony or SL camera body;  It may or may not matter to you.  Or me.

The issue to me, and I just went through this, is what do I want to use?  How much $$$ will a change cost me (M to SL or any other combo) ? What is ACCEPTABLE performance? What are my long term plans for a camera?  Do I NEED AF?

My particular situation is similar to yours.... I am an Amateur.  Do not get paid to take pictures.  Never.   So buying a new camera is never justified financially.  I do not need AF.  Nice to have, but hardly required.

I have a stable of M lenses, a few R lenses.  I really like the M lens look.  Really.  But I want EVF focusing. AND I want better metering than the RF M cameras offer.....'Here is how I evaluated the choices....

Best user experience and IQ is an M10 ( + /- Suffix) with EVF.  But that is only 24MP.  Best IQ at 24MP (tied with M240).  Coat is about $5-9K depending on new/used, and specific model.  I can not justify that cost.  Out of the question.

M240 offers most of the M10 benefits ( lower EVF functionality and resolution, but.... to me these are small differences)  Price point, right now, is $2K to $2,5K.  Justifiable?  Easier than $5K

SL with adapter for M lenses.... The user experience is low with this combo, if you plan on focusing wide open and then stop down to take the shot.  It is a big pain.  Those of you old enough to remember preset lenses (1960'S, 1970'S)  will know the pain.    The metering is  much IMPROVED over the M family of basically a spot meter.  Cost right now is the $1800-$2500 range.  About the same as a M240, or a bit lower.

By far, the best user experience with IQ equal to the M240 or other M options, is the SL or SL2  WITH NATIVE SL LENSES.  The lens choice is key.... results from the SL are truly magnificent.  User experience is first rate.  AF.  Metering is as good as it gets.  Why not take this choice..?  Cost is in excess of $3K PER NETIVE MOUNT LENS!!!  Times 2-3 lenses, and you are spending $10K-$15K++++.  Ain't going to happen.  If you are a new Dad, with kids growing up, the value of AF is WAY more than you think.

I had taken the M lens plus Sony A7 route..... About the same as the SL + M lens route.  ( Why Sony?  Because the SL bodies were in the $ 4K range and the Sony was less than $1K)

HATE the user experience!!!  I NEED ( internal stubbornness) to focus at wide open.  That is a royal pain, I gave up when I was about 15 years old and had my Miranda cameras.  I now use native Sony lenses, with attendant lower IQ.  Yes, I can tell.   That lower IQ always bothered me.

I have bought a M240 setup.  Bigger files (18MP vs 24MP for more capable cropping in post))  than the M9, EVF capable ( for better focusing, although the EVF offers only at set aperture for focusing, the RF will work fine for most situations)..And the most important issue.... the best IQ that can be had.  But I sacrificed AF, better metering, and even bigger files that the SL2 would offer me.  I also saved $10K to $15K++++.

I will suggest you buy a cheap Sl.  Buy a  M-SL adapter.  See if you like the combo.  It may be that focusing at working aperture is OK with you, or maybe you will not get crazy ( like me) for having to open up the lens to focus wide open.

And keep your eyes out for  a set of SL native lenses.....

That's what I am doing... especially that last thought..... Native SL lenses.....  It may take me a few years to get MY SL2 with lenses, but for now, I am happy with my choice.

Take the road of most experimentation?????? SL + M lenses?  See where it takes you?

 

[gbealnz]

I'll echo Frank's comments.

Having owned now 3 SL's over the last few years, and the last one was with the SL24-90, I say they are a wonderful tool, WITH the SL lenses. The first two I used with adapted lenses, mainly my R lenses. I am old enough to remember the pre-set lenses, and the SL and manual adapted lenses is the same, or worse. Optically, the SL lens that I had was unbeatable.

I too would suggest buying an SL if you can get it cheap enough, try it for yourself, adapting your M lenses, and see. At worst you will lose a slight amount. You may like it, you may not.

[northernlights]

Thank you all for taking time to help me with the decision (and Jonoslack privately) 
I actually tried an M240 but couldn’t bring myself to get it since I have just sold my MP-240 on 28 Feb after 3 years. 
It’s an SL and an original Leica M-Adaptor L with M lenses for now. My main concerns are IQ reproduction between M lenses on M240 and M lenses on the SL. From the first time shots with the 35 lux fle on the SL, I am happy there is no practical discern-able difference. I gain the most with the 90 cron APO which was a hit and miss on the M240. 
i still can focus faster with the RF patch than the EVF but at 47, it’ll be pretty soon before my eyesight effects come into play. 

[northernlights]

Been enjoying the SL for 3 weeks until the lockdown came. All manually focused shots with M lenses: 28 Elmarit asph v2, Canon 50 f1.4 LTM, 90 Summicron apo, 35 lux fle and the Nikon 300 f4 AFS IF-ED. 

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Edited April 24, 2020 by northernlights

[northernlights]

Only the social distancing dogs’ shots is within my compounds during the lockdown down using the Nikon 300mm. 
The dragonfly was with the Kipon macro M to M mount adaptor with the 90apo. 

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[ravinj]

If your primary use case is M lenses, M240 or M10 is best. I have used all of them - M9, M240, M10, SL and SL2. Nothing comes close to M cameras for M lenses.

To me, since I don't shoot high ISOs, a used M240 is  the best value for M digital today and doesn't give up anything compared to M10 in image quality. Unless shooting wildlife from far away, an M with a 35 and 85 or 90 makes for a very portable travel kit.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by ravinj