Converting files to bnw - best practice?

[tedd]

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Hi gang,

I've been an M6 shooter the last couple of years (mostly FP4+ and HP5+) but just won an M-E 240 on eBay, so obviously I'll have to get used to digital editing! Is there a general consensus on the best way to convert Leica images to bnw? I used to use Nik back before I got into film, but don't really like the destructive editing or the need to move out of Lightroom. Is there a better way now or do I have to either suck up the destructive nature of Nik or get used to Lightroom's ugly grain simulation?

Thanks!

[benqui]

If you want to have "good" grain, use your M6. For color conversions in Lightroom, I just press "V", that's all. Than you can do the rest (contrast ....)

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[lct]

Silver Efex here. What do you mean by destructive if i may ask? 

[Jean-Michel]

LR has all the controls you need to convert files into black and white. The only way to show grain. - and I film days one did all that one could do to avoid showing grain - is to use film and print on silver-gelatin paper. As soon as you move to a scan of your negative or paper print you go from grain to electronic noise. 

[jaeger]

Here is your destructive panel.  It's very destructive but enjoy at your own risk!  😃 

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[lct]

35 minutes ago, Jean-Michel said:

LR has all the controls you need to convert files into black and white.

Including color filters? Just curious.

[Good To Be Retired]

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12 hours ago, tedd said:

or do I have to either suck up the destructive nature of Nik or get used to Lightroom's ugly grain simulation?

 

I'm not sure what your work flow might be, but it sounds like you may be shooting jpeg only.  In which case you would have a destructive edit pretty much regardless of what you do.

I have a number of choices when converting to B & W, but as I only shoot raw I first create a tiff and perform the conversions on that.  The raw file is kept unaltered sorta like a negative.  I recommend you try tiffs and Silver Efex Pro.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[lct]

Destructive only if one works on the original tiff or jpeg file but why doing so? Something must escape me...

[mediumformula]

Sell the 240 and buy a 246. 

[PeterGA]

It all depends on how much futzing around you are willing to do for any image. My order of post processing varies accordingly 

1. Shoot JPG B&W straight out of camera

2. Convert to B&W in Capture One or LR or PS whatever you have at hand 

3. Edit a variant (copy) in PS and then use SilverFX

4. Edit a copy of DNG file in Photoshop using Luminosity Masks ( Lumenzia makes this a lot easier/better)

PS:  If you don't wish to pay for Adobe or Capture One and or NIK and or Lumenzia - then consider Darktable - which provides five different ways to accomplish a B&W conversion and is free software - but has a rather steep learning curve.

 

[Jean-Michel]

21 hours ago, lct said:

Including color filters? Just curious.

Yes. LR has a bunch of presets in the develop module including yellow, green, red, blue, orange filters, together with some other ‘looks’. You can use those and still adjust the tones with the basic conversion controls. That is a whole lot more control than simply using a lens filter on a film camera! I never tried any of the third party applications as I feel sufficiently capable of doing my own conversions to my liking  

[marchyman]

23 hours ago, lct said:

Including color filters? Just curious.

The B&W panel has eight sliders to adjust the B&W mix:, Red Orange, Yellow, Green, Aqua, Blue, Purple, and Magenta.

Capture One has something similar, but with six sliders: Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue, Magenta.

[peterm1_Leica]

I am mainly using Lightroom and Nik Silver Efex. I find that Nik runs under Lightroom quite OK as a plugin and while it is technically true that you need to "drop out" of Lightroom when you select Nik in the "Edit Photo in...." option in Lightroom this is no great hardship as the process is quite automated. Then when the edits are completed in Nik just click on "save" within the Nik plugin and the image is automatically exported back into Lightroom as a new virtual image. This it is never destructive as you suggest - the original Lightroom image is still there and always available to use for other purposes. Hence nothing is ever lost (maybe this is something I selected when setting up Lightroom I cannot recall). BTW if you ever need to you can right click on any image in Lightroom and select "create virtual image". This creates a duplicate of the Lightroom image so you can process the image in Lightroom in two different ways. You do not need to do this before using Nik plugin as the software does it for you.

If I only want a simple and quick conversion to B/W, I find that converting to B/W is pretty good in Lightroom. (In this case I would create a virtual image so as to ensure that the old image is always available for other purposes). Then just click the "black and white" option and the image is converted. Then use the color balance sliders to the left or right to achieve a color filter effect similar to that which would have been achieved when shooting black and white film with an actual color filter on the lens. You can also change contrast structure etc. The main reason I do not use Lightroom this way every time is that one of the finishing effects I like to use in Nik Silver Efex is the toning effect (using a slight silver tone in the final image). I find a slight tinge of this color tone )almost invisible) gives a better result for many images. The following image was converted in this manner with this slight toning.

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A Friendly Face with Coffee by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

Edited March 8, 2020 by peterm1_Leica

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On 3/2/2020 at 10:08 AM, tedd said:

Is there a better way now or do I have to either suck up the destructive nature of Nik

Have you never heard of 'save as'? If you change the file name when you save the image the original image remains untouched.

But to answer your question use Silver Efex as a Lightroom plugin, it is far and away more controllable and as has been said already you have easy access to simulating the effect of colour filters on the image. 

[Jean-Michel]

As I mentioned earlier, I do not use third party software, but I am sure that Silver EFEX and others do an excellent job for those who use those.

Just a couple of notes about why I am happy to simply remain in LR: unless I need to do a rare  trip to PS, I keep my files as DNG; the b&w conversion is on a virtual copy; the controls in the b&w panel offer 8 sliders to adjust the b&w mix; there are also a bunch of LR B&W Presets available (I never need or  use those); the Profile Browser has some 12 untitled B&W options as well as simulated Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange and Red filters. 

Then, there is the Split Toning panel: you can tone your B&W image as you wish.

And, once you are done, you create and adjust a Soft-proof copy so that you can print on your chosen paper an image which is at least close to what you see on your screen; then re-adjusrt if need be.

And, you get to create your very own "MySilverFX"!

[peterm1_Leica]

On 3/9/2020 at 1:34 AM, Jean-Michel said:

As I mentioned earlier, I do not use third party software, but I am sure that Silver EFEX and others do an excellent job for those who use those.

Just a couple of notes about why I am happy to simply remain in LR: unless I need to do a rare  trip to PS, I keep my files as DNG; the b&w conversion is on a virtual copy; the controls in the b&w panel offer 8 sliders to adjust the b&w mix; there are also a bunch of LR B&W Presets available (I never need or  use those); the Profile Browser has some 12 untitled B&W options as well as simulated Blue, Green, Yellow, Orange and Red filters. 

Then, there is the Split Toning panel: you can tone your B&W image as you wish.

And, once you are done, you create and adjust a Soft-proof copy so that you can print on your chosen paper an image which is at least close to what you see on your screen; then re-adjusrt if need be.

And, you get to create your very own "MySilverFX"!

All of this is true. I use Nik Silver Efex running under Lightroom most times perhaps because I am used to it and know how to "drive" it so it can be relied upon to give me good results. But Lightroom will give great results too though I find myself to be a bit more comfortable with the Nik product and  the results I generally get with it. As to toning I find the results in Nik to be nicer to my eye (more brown than the yellowish tinge one gets with Lightroom using split tones). Other than that they are pretty close in terms of outcomes. 

[tedd]

On 3/2/2020 at 1:15 PM, lct said:

Silver Efex here. What do you mean by destructive if i may ask? 

Just that you can't make a few edits in SFX, move back to LR and then go back to SFX and change what you did there without starting from scratch. You can use a separate file as others have said below, but then you're starting from the top again. I tend to edit an image, leave it for a day then come back to it and pull back on my over-zealous editing. This is impossible in SFX due to the destructive nature (unless I am missing something?).

On 3/2/2020 at 7:01 PM, Jean-Michel said:

LR has all the controls you need to convert files into black and white. The only way to show grain. - and I film days one did all that one could do to avoid showing grain - is to use film and print on silver-gelatin paper. As soon as you move to a scan of your negative or paper print you go from grain to electronic noise. 

I have a high-res dedicated 35mm scanner which shows grain in almost the same way as my enlarger! Grain is a part of the negative itself, scanning doesn't get rid of it and it certainly does pick it up (though cheaper scanners can introduce colour and luminescence noise just like a digital camera on top of it). I actually really like subtle grain in bnw as I feel it gives your eyes something to lock on to.

On 3/2/2020 at 10:37 PM, Good To Be Retired said:

I'm not sure what your work flow might be, but it sounds like you may be shooting jpeg only.  In which case you would have a destructive edit pretty much regardless of what you do.

I have a number of choices when converting to B & W, but as I only shoot raw I first create a tiff and perform the conversions on that.  The raw file is kept unaltered sorta like a negative.  I recommend you try tiffs and Silver Efex Pro.

Definitely shooting RAW

On 3/3/2020 at 6:42 PM, marchyman said:

The B&W panel has eight sliders to adjust the B&W mix:, Red Orange, Yellow, Green, Aqua, Blue, Purple, and Magenta.

Capture One has something similar, but with six sliders: Red, Yellow, Green, Cyan, Blue, Magenta.

This is exactly what I was after, thanks. I'd been using the RNI 5 pack with film sim (HP5 primarily) and for some reason they lose this option. A shame as otherwise it does a pretty good job for a starting point!

On 3/8/2020 at 11:31 AM, peterm1_Leica said:

I am mainly using Lightroom and Nik Silver Efex. I find that Nik runs under Lightroom quite OK as a plugin and while it is technically true that you need to "drop out" of Lightroom when you select Nik in the "Edit Photo in...." option in Lightroom this is no great hardship as the process is quite automated. Then when the edits are completed in Nik just click on "save" within the Nik plugin and the image is automatically exported back into Lightroom as a new virtual image. This it is never destructive as you suggest - the original Lightroom image is still there and always available to use for other purposes. Hence nothing is ever lost (maybe this is something I selected when setting up Lightroom I cannot recall). BTW if you ever need to you can right click on any image in Lightroom and select "create virtual image". This creates a duplicate of the Lightroom image so you can process the image in Lightroom in two different ways. You do not need to do this before using Nik plugin as the software does it for you.

If I only want a simple and quick conversion to B/W, I find that converting to B/W is pretty good in Lightroom. (In this case I would create a virtual image so as to ensure that the old image is always available for other purposes). Then just click the "black and white" option and the image is converted. Then use the color balance sliders to the left or right to achieve a color filter effect similar to that which would have been achieved when shooting black and white film with an actual color filter on the lens. You can also change contrast structure etc. The main reason I do not use Lightroom this way every time is that one of the finishing effects I like to use in Nik Silver Efex is the toning effect (using a slight silver tone in the final image). I find a slight tinge of this color tone )almost invisible) gives a better result for many images. The following image was converted in this manner with this slight toning.

A Friendly Face with Coffee by Life in Shadows, on Flickr

Great image! Maybe I do need to give SFX a go and just suck it up that I can't go back and make subtle changes later.

---

Thank you to everyone for the replies!

[lct]

2 hours ago, tedd said:

Just that you can't make a few edits in SFX, move back to LR and then go back to SFX and change what you did there without starting from scratch. You can use a separate file as others have said below, but then you're starting from the top again. I tend to edit an image, leave it for a day then come back to it and pull back on my over-zealous editing. This is impossible in SFX due to the destructive nature (unless I am missing something?).

I see what you mean but i use separate files the same way as i do for other matters than photography. I do not destruct anything this way and i don't have to start from scratch at each step of my work fortunately. 

[evikne]

4 hours ago, tedd said:

I'd been using the RNI 5 pack with film sim (HP5 primarily) and for some reason they lose this option. A shame as otherwise it does a pretty good job for a starting point!

The RNI B&W film simulations are technically a color image with saturation set to zero (this is also why they won't be sorted under "B&W" in the profile browser). If you drag the saturation slider below 0, nothing happens, because it's already set to 0 "under the hood". But if you drag it the other way, you'll see some change. And then you will also be able to use the HSL/Color sliders. 

BTW, I love the RNI film simulation profiles, both color and B&W, and I use them a lot. 

Edited March 15, 2020 by evikne

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[peterm1_Leica]

On 3/15/2020 at 5:52 PM, tedd said:

Just that you can't make a few edits in SFX, move back to LR and then go back to SFX and change what you did there without starting from scratch. You can use a separate file as others have said below, but then you're starting from the top again. I tend to edit an image, leave it for a day then come back to it and pull back on my over-zealous editing. This is impossible in SFX due to the destructive nature (unless I am missing something?).

I have a high-res dedicated 35mm scanner which shows grain in almost the same way as my enlarger! Grain is a part of the negative itself, scanning doesn't get rid of it and it certainly does pick it up (though cheaper scanners can introduce colour and luminescence noise just like a digital camera on top of it). I actually really like subtle grain in bnw as I feel it gives your eyes something to lock on to.

Definitely shooting RAW

This is exactly what I was after, thanks. I'd been using the RNI 5 pack with film sim (HP5 primarily) and for some reason they lose this option. A shame as otherwise it does a pretty good job for a starting point!

Great image! Maybe I do need to give SFX a go and just suck it up that I can't go back and make subtle changes later.

Thank you to everyone for the replies!

Thank you for your comment about the portrait photo.

Referencing the comment about making subtle changes later.

I find it most effective to run SFX (and other Nik Plugins) under Lightroom as LR has some excellent capabilities - especially in its ability to pull back highlight details which is better than anything else I have found. Of course making "running changes" / "further subtle changes" to an image is  issue with Lightroom too as it does not use Layers and hence no option for non destructive editing in quite the way that you might, say , with Photoshop. But there are workarounds.

When you are in Lightroom and decide that it is time to use SFX (or some other editing program that you have linked to Lightroom to run as a plugin) its just a matter of going to the "edit in" option in Lightroom (found under the "Photo" menu at the top of the screen. When you select SFX (or other editing plugin) which shows up as one of the editing plug ins available to you, you will be asked if you wish to edit the image complete with any existing Lightroom edits you have already made or edit the original image in SFX- I always select the former as the chances are that you will have made some edits to the original image in Lightroom already and wish to incorporate them in the black and white version).

Lightroom will then automatically create a copy of the  relevant image you plan to edit and open it in SFX in a separate window. When you complete your edits in SFX and click "save" the file is exported out of SFX back into Lightroom ready to do further tweaking if you wish. And of course the previous image - the one you used as the basis for editing in SFX is also still available in Lightroom. So if you wish to you could go back and re-import THAT file into SFX if you decide you do not like the result from the previous SFX edit. Or as I suggested you can just tweak what you imported from SFX using Lightroom and make further tweaks that way.....depends on what you need.

A further option is to go to the  "Create Virtual Copy" option also under the Photo menu in the Develop Module of Lightroom and use it to create a new copy of the file with all of its edits intact. In this way you can for example,  preserve the image you exported from SFX back into Lightroom while also continuing to  experiment with further edits on it in Lightroom. This at least gives you a way to keep your last version of the  file intact while you try various further edits.

Not quite as easy as using Layers in Photoshop and preserving your edits that way but still very effective. 

 

The following are all products of the above mode of working - and for me at least I find it works quite OK (In each of these though I have also first  used a touch of Nik Analog Pro also running under Lightroom to add a little extra texture and interest.:

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Edited March 29, 2020 by peterm1_Leica