Considering Leica M-A/M-P, concerns about quality, needs help

[JimmyCheng]

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Hi all, this is my first post on this forum (though I do come here and read a post or two every now and then), and I'd really like some input regarding the quality of recent Leica Film bodies.

Background:

I have been a digital shooter for the most part of my life, and I have adopted the m system about 4 years ago and have been sticking to it ever since. I like simplicity of these cameras and it just feels like a really beautiful piece of art even when I am putting them on my shelf. I have recently acquired a Leica M2 (late version) and started shooting film for the first time in my life! and I love it!

That being said, I am considering obtain a second body (since the m2 is already way older than me and may need frequent service), which ideally can last a bit longer without service. That narrowed me down to the two new Leica film bodies, which are M-A and M-P. However, after doing my research, I found it seems the newer models are of less quality and more prone to minor quality issues and some even went back after very brief usage. That really worries me and I am thinking maybe it's a better idea to get a newer old model like the m-4. (I like it to be pure mechanical so m6-7 is out of the picture)

Also, another concern is that these new film bodies are often back-ordered here in Australia, is it normal?

Could you guys please give me some advice regarding this very important purchasing decision? Thanks in Advance.

Jimmy

Edited March 2, 2020 by JimmyCheng

[jaapv]

An M2 needs service every 25 years...

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[logan2z]

FWIW I have an M-A and an M4 that was recently CLA'd by YYe.  The M4 is terrific but the M-A is just a bit smoother in operation.  I've had it over three years and have had zero issues with it.  Probably the best purchase I've ever made.  I wouldn't hesitate.  

[JimmyCheng]

22 minutes ago, logan2z said:

FWIW I have an M-A and an M4 that was recently CLA'd by YYe.  The M4 is terrific but the M-A is just a bit smoother in operation.  I've had it over three years and have had zero issues with it.  Probably the best purchase I've ever made.  I wouldn't hesitate.  

That's really good to hear! I've seen some recent posts here complaining about M-A / M-P quality issues, which really made me paranoid. 

[mole73]

I use the MP built in February 2019 and it is a real joy! Silky smooth in taking pictures and the results are what I hoped for (ok this is me not the camera).

I can highly recommend the MP!

After using the M3, M2, M5, M7, M8 and M9 during the last 17 years my clear favorite is the MechanicalPerfection😉

Robert

[wattsy]

If it's not perfect out of the box, Leica will sort it for you. The single person that works on film cameras at Wetzlar will (when they are not on holiday) give it their personal attention and the camera will come back 100%. It's a bit of a faff but you'll forget about it once you get to use the camera.

[ianman]

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Why are M6 and M7 not acceptable but MP is?

Putting those aside, so choice between M-A and M4, one of the main differences are the available framelines. Do you need 28mm or 75mm? If so then you'll need an M4-P or M-A. But there are some cosmetic differences (big red Leitz logo on the M4-P) that will influence how your shelf will look.

Back-order for new film cameras seems to be the norm everywhere.

[JimmyCheng]

7 minutes ago, wattsy said:

If it's not perfect out of the box, Leica will sort it for you. The single person that works on film cameras at Wetzlar will (when they are not on holiday) give it their personal attention and the camera will come back 100%. It's a bit of a faff but you'll forget about it once you get to use the camera.

That is truly awesome! Is there really just one single person working on these? Jeez no wonder it's back-ordered everywhere

[JimmyCheng]

7 minutes ago, ianman said:

Why are M6 and M7 not acceptable but MP is?

Putting those aside, so choice between M-A and M4, one of the main differences are the available framelines. Do you need 28mm or 75mm? If so then you'll need an M4-P or M-A. But there are some cosmetic differences (big red Leitz logo on the M4-P) that will influence how your shelf will look.

Back-order for new film cameras seems to be the norm everywhere.

Sorry that I didn't clarify that, I mean M-P and M-A are the newer ones, and M-A is my choice since it's purely mechanical, as for M6-7 I am comparing to the elder generations (since they are discontinued as well)

[a.noctilux]

M2 can not be replaced, Leitz built it as simple as possible = less maintenance needed than more features M3/M4.

Decades use of those M3/M2/M4/etc. teached me to accept maintenances once a while.

As said somewhere, for me M4 ( I had many Ms to use over time ) was the M that needed the most maintenances (for repairs or adjusments).

 

When Leica launched M-A in end 2014, I "replaced" all Ms with two M-A ( but always keep some for sentimental affair, even 'to be repaired M3/M4' that I may trade or sell for pieces ).

All working M4s etc. were sold/traded for non use.

For me M-As are as reliable as Leica M could be ( the best viewfinder in my M stable ) and beautifully built to last.

 

Jimmy,

In your shoes, I'd take a second "button M2" 😉.

 

[ianman]

5 minutes ago, JimmyCheng said:

That is truly awesome! Is there really just one single person working on these? Jeez no wonder it's back-ordered everywhere

I'll be corrected if I'm wrong but I think there has been for some time a difference in interpretation of what was mentioned in a Leica produced video a few years ago.

In the video the text was something like "whereas digital bodies go through the hands of multiple employees, a single technician will handle each stage of production of a film camera." What I understand from this is that - as is said - a single person will be involved in assembling a film M, but that does not mean that only one person is doing this. There may be 2 or 3 technicians, each fully assembling film bodies from start to finish.

Others may have different sources and I could be completely wrong.

[01af]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb JimmyCheng:

That narrowed me down to the two new Leica film bodies, which are M-A and M-P.

You mean M-A and MP,  don't you? The M-P is a digital camera.

.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb JimmyCheng:

However, after doing my research, I found it seems the newer models are of less quality and more prone to minor quality issues and some even went back after very brief usage.

They don't 'break' after brief usage. Instead, they sometimes suffer from minor quality control issues right out of the box. So if you buy one, make sure everything is fine. If it is then enjoy it for years. If not then have it replaced.

I bought an M-A a few years ago, and I am very happy with it.

.

vor 5 Stunden schrieb JimmyCheng:

I like it to be pure mechanical so M6 and M7 is out of the picture.

The M6 and M6 TTL are as mechanical as the MP. Basically, the MP is nothing but a slightly modified M6. The shutter itself as well as the shutter control are purely mechanical. Only the integrated light meter requires some electronics — and a battery. The only analog Leica M with an electronically cotrolled shutter is the M7. If you want a camera with absolutely no electronics inside then you have to go meterless. The only modern meterless M body is the M-A; it's the direct descendant of M4, M4-2, and M4-P.

.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

An M2 needs service every 25 years ...

So do other M bodies, too. More frequently when unused.

[mdp]

49 minutes ago, mole73 said:

I use the MP built in February 2019 and it is a real joy! Silky smooth in taking pictures and the results are what I hoped for (ok this is me not the camera).

I can highly recommend the MP!

After using the M3, M2, M5, M7, M8 and M9 during the last 17 years my clear favorite is the MechanicalPerfection😉

Robert

That's similar to my situation. After having most film M's, I've settled on an M2 and a new last year, MP. It was perfect out of the box. 

[Mute-on]

Just buy another M2 (you can never have too many M2s), or get the M4 from Camera Exchange in Box Hill. 

Sorted

Edited March 2, 2020 by Mute-on

[JimmyCheng]

9 minutes ago, Mute-on said:

Just buy another M2 (you can never have too many M2s), or get the M4 from Camera Exchange in Box Hill. 

Sorted

Ha! I've never been to their site before, I see that m4, price is not bad as well, might consider that actually, for a different flavor than my M2. Also I noticed that they do services as well for 340 bucks, wonder how long does it take and if it is any good.

[JimmyCheng]

22 minutes ago, mdp said:

That's similar to my situation. After having most film M's, I've settled on an M2 and a new last year, MP. It was perfect out of the box. 

How do you compare the MP to your M2? Is there any big differences while handling the two?

[a.noctilux]

More than 76,000 units of M2 built, we have more choices than scarce "new M-A".

 

Side note...

In second stage, if I have to sell now, I'd sell M-A over M2 (that I still happend to possess two "battered but working as new M2", also).

 

9 minutes ago, JimmyCheng said:

How do you compare the MP to your M2? Is there any big differences while handling the two?

I had MP in x0.85 and x 0.72, M2 has the nicer 'complete and mono focal frames lines' than MP which in turn has brighter/contrastier VF

Handling is same M2 is way lighter in hand than MP. Strange as MP at 600g and M2 weight 560g !

Real vulcanite is on M2 better than slippy leatherette MP, if not replaced covering.

Changing film is quicker on MP which accept Leicavit or Motor if required.

Edited March 2, 2020 by a.noctilux

[JimmyCheng]

25 minutes ago, Mute-on said:

Just buy another M2 (you can never have too many M2s), or get the M4 from Camera Exchange in Box Hill. 

Sorted

I actually have a very interesting choice now. I spot a M4 with all metal bits from M3, and in mint condition which was serviced several years ago. I am very tempting to get that, downside is it is a bit expensive due to the condition and cosmetic changes applied, it is selling for around 1500 USD, so still cheaper than either M-A or MP. What do you guys think.

[JimmyCheng]

11 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

More than 76,000 units of M2 built, we have more choices than scarce "new M-A".

 

Side note...

In second stage, if I have to sell now, I'd sell M-A over M2 (that I still happend to possess two "battered but working as new M2", also).

 

I had MP in x0.85 and x 0.72, M2 has the nicer 'complete and mono focal frames lines' than MP which in turn has brighter/contrastier VF

Handling is same M2 is way lighter in hand than MP. Strange as MP at 600g and M2 weight 560g !

Real vulcanite is on M2 better than slippy leatherette MP, if not replaced covering.

Changing film is quicker on MP which accept Leicavit or Motor if required.

 

48 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

M2 can not be replaced, Leitz built it as simple as possible = less maintenance needed than more features M3/M4.

Decades use of those M3/M2/M4/etc. teached me to accept maintenances once a while.

As said somewhere, for me M4 ( I had many Ms to use over time ) was the M that needed the most maintenances (for repairs or adjusments).

 

When Leica launched M-A in end 2014, I "replaced" all Ms with two M-A ( but always keep some for sentimental affair, even 'to be repaired M3/M4' that I may trade or sell for pieces ).

All working M4s etc. were sold/traded for non use.

For me M-As are as reliable as Leica M could be ( the best viewfinder in my M stable ) and beautifully built to last.

 

Jimmy,

In your shoes, I'd take a second "button M2" 😉.

 

Thank you for the detailed information! that is very halpful, like I mentioned above, I now have some other options, the Frankenstein M4 is quite tempting to me as the only reason I chose m2 before m4 back than was because I don't like the plastic bits on the m4

Edited March 2, 2020 by JimmyCheng

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wattsy]

1 hour ago, JimmyCheng said:

That is truly awesome! Is there really just one single person working on these? Jeez no wonder it's back-ordered everywhere

I should have been clearer. There is one person doing film camera repairs/servicing at Wetzlar. I believe he is part-time too. 
 

The cameras are built in Portugal as far as I know. I have no idea how many people are employed in that area. 

Edited March 2, 2020 by wattsy