21mm/f4 Super Angulon serial number change point for 3rd cam

[wlaidlaw]

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Does anyone know the approximate serial number point, after which the 21mm/f4 Super Angulon gained a third cam. Unhelpfully Leica did not change the model number of 11813 when they added the extra cam. As I would like to use this lens on my R9 and R4 as well as my Leicaflex SL2, the third cam is a requirement. Most sellers don't advise whether the lens they are selling is 2 or 3 cam or just don't know. I have sent queries to a few sellers with the image below attached to help them with identifying the somewhat difficult to see, stepped matt black third cam. 

Wilson

 

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[masjah]

Wilson, the best I can do is speculation! The R3 was introduced in (I think) 1976. The Forum Leica Wiki gives serial numbers for this lens around this date as:

2613101-2615100                   1973     (2000 numbers)

2917001-2917150                   1978     (150 numbers)

2918401-2918900                   1978     (500 numbers)

I would assume that once 3 cam lenses were in production, two cam only production would cease, apart possibly from selling off remaining stock. I would speculate therefore that the third range above would be 3-cam, and the first probably 2-cam. So if you focussed your attention on the third range, and subsequent issues listed in the Wiki, you would probably be OK. (I've not read anywhere that any late production of this earlier lens was R-cam only.) 

 

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[wlaidlaw]

John,

Many thanks for that very useful information. I have now discovered due to the very helpful response from a French trade seller with photos, that Schneider Optik, who seemingly made this lens, used a different third cam from Leica and theirs is bright stainless steel. I had thought that Schneider only either designed the lens or at the most, made the glass elements and Leica made the rest but from the different mount, it would seem that this may not have been the case. 

There is a very nice late lens (1981) for sale in Italy that is definitely 3 cam. 

Although the ever helpful ApoTelyt's chart shows that the third cam is required from R3 onwards, my 2 cam 35mm/f2,8 Elmarit-R seems to work OK and meters correctly on my R4-MOT but does not meter correctly on my R9. It would seem therefore that on the R9, the 3rd cam is essential (in place of the R cam and ROM) but only desirable on the R3-R7. As I definitely would want to use the 21mm on my R9, I  need a 3 cam lens. 

Wilson

 

[dkCambridgeshire]

Beware of 'Schneideritis' with this lens whereby the black edge paint on the circumference of the lens elements tends to deteriorate with resultant tiny visible spots when viewed through the front element … and not always easily seen in sales description photos. My example shows this anomaly but still produces excellent images … at the usual f8 / f11 optimum apertures for Super Angulons.   

dunk

Edited February 27, 2020 by dkCambridgeshire

[masjah]

On the subject of the finish of the Schneider third cam which Wilson mentions, be aware that, for the 28/2.8 PC Super Angulon R (which is also a Schneider lens, though of course a completely different animal) the vestigial R cam and second cam, which exist to tell the camera that there is no auto-stop down mechanism, so that what light you see on metering is what you will get on exposure, are both finished in matt black. Having second and third cams, this means that this shift lens can be used on the SL, SL2 and all R3 onwards cameras, but not the original Leicaflex.

 

[wlaidlaw]

I always wondered if a little tin of Humbrol model enamel in dead black and a tiny pointed tip brush would be able to cure the "Schneider-itis". I have a few of those brushes down at my French house, which I used to paint all the many tiny rivets on the drive chains of my Pocher 1/8th scale model of the 90HP 1907 Fiat race car. Sadly one of our cats decided to jump up onto the shelf, where the completed model reposed and knocked it onto a tiled floor where it smashed - so much for the many hours work I had put into it. 

Wilson

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[dkCambridgeshire]

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54 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

I always wondered if a little tin of Humbrol model enamel in dead black and a tiny pointed tip brush would be able to cure the "Schneider-itis". I have a few of those brushes down at my French house, which I used to paint all the many tiny rivets on the drive chains of my Pocher 1/8th scale model of the 90HP 1907 Fiat race car. Sadly one of our cats decided to jump up onto the shelf, where the completed model reposed and knocked it onto a tiled floor where it smashed - so much for the many hours work I had put into it. 

Wilson

 

Wilson, I asked Newton Ellis (Liverpool) if they would consider dismantling my R 21/4 to remedy the edge paint degradation. I was advised they were not keen to tackle some R lens repairs  due their design complexity.  The SA 21/4 R is a 10 element Schneider design and not straightforward to dismantle and reassemble … and I've no idea which actual elements would require edge repainting. In use, the paint degradation does not affect imaging - but unlikely I could ever resell the lens. I'm very happy with its performance but my Leica R 19mm R Mk II is used more frequently. Coincidentally the Leica R 19mm R Mk II (not a Schneider design) also has edge paint degradation with the same 'spotty' residue … but again the imaging is not compromised. I bought the almost 'mint' 19m R Mk II from a well known London dealer (where the 'elite' used too 'meet and greet'   ) who asked me after shipping/delivery, "Are you happy with the lens?"  I was happy with its performance but did not think to examine the lens interior closely until over 6 months later. Another R lens I could not resell. Nowadays my 28mm PC-Super Angulon R shift lens gets more use than both the SA 21/4 R and the 19/2.8 Elmarit R Mk II. The 28mm PC-Super Angulon R is an incredibly versatile lens e.g. taking photos above the heads of crowds using full downward shift … and without a tripod (with the SL 601) 

dunk 

Edited February 27, 2020 by dkCambridgeshire

[wlaidlaw]

Dunk, 

I have ordered a 21 Super Angulon-R from Aperture UK. I will run some imaging tests on my SL with the R to L adapter after it arrives. If it is not satisfactory, it will go back. It was described as having worn paintwork externally but excellent optics. 

Wilson

[wlaidlaw]

Dunk, 

Please correct me if I am wrong but on doing some research into "Schneideritis" it would seem there are 3 sub-variants. The first and most obvious, easily visible to the naked eye, is where the matt black mask surrounding the lens elements has been attacked by fungus and has a number of white dots on it, usually round the front element. This is really only relevant if you are using a filter, where light reflects off the white dots and then causes flare on the back surface of the filter. The second variant is standard fungus spotting on an air surface or as balsam separation on the lens elements/groups and is best detected by shining a bright UV LED torch through the lens, when the fungus will fluoresce. The third variant is where the black anti reflective/anti flare paint on the edge of each element, has started to flake off and may lead to increased flare at large apertures on the lens. I think you are saying it is this third variant that is apparent on both your 21mm and 19mm R lenses. How easy is it to see this? Can you detect any flare caused by it? Do the paint flakes sit on the lens surfaces? 

Wilson

[dkCambridgeshire]

2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Dunk, 

Please correct me if I am wrong but on doing some research into "Schneideritis" it would seem there are 3 sub-variants. The first and most obvious, easily visible to the naked eye, is where the matt black mask surrounding the lens elements has been attacked by fungus and has a number of white dots on it, usually round the front element. This is really only relevant if you are using a filter, where light reflects off the white dots and then causes flare on the back surface of the filter. The second variant is standard fungus spotting on an air surface or as balsam separation on the lens elements/groups and is best detected by shining a bright UV LED torch through the lens, when the fungus will fluoresce. The third variant is where the black anti reflective/anti flare paint on the edge of each element, has started to flake off and may lead to increased flare at large apertures on the lens. I think you are saying it is this third variant that is apparent on both your 21mm and 19mm R lenses. How easy is it to see this? Can you detect any flare caused by it? Do the paint flakes sit on the lens surfaces? 

Wilson

Wilson, I cannot detect any flare but I've not used the 21 lens with a filter and was unaware there are 3 types of Schneideritis … I'll have to examine/ research again. Leica Mayfair technician David Slater examined my 19mm and confirmed the black spots are lens edge paint degradation / flaking … he also advised, "… nothing to be concerned about as does not affect imaging " … David Slater is very knowledgable - he's ex-Hasselblad. I've used the 19mm lens in awkward lighting e.g. night time London West End and have not experienced any problems. The 19mm paint 'dots' appear to have adhered to the glass and are not getting worse. I'll photograph the 19mm black dots when I can set up the lens properly  … and will also re-photograph the dots on the 21mm. I've not used the lenses at full aperture - the SA 21mm is not really designed for full aperture use (according to a LF Super Angulon enthusiast who advised me to use it at f8 or f11 for optimal results). The 19mm R Mk II has built-in / dial-in filters … I only use the UV filter.  I've owned the SA 21mm R lens for over 20 years and the Schneideritis is not getting worse . Since acquiring the 19mm R I have not used the SA 21mm R . I'll likely compare their imaging characteristics i.e. with the same subject(s) soon. I don't have a UV torch to examine the 'dots' but can order one. 

dunk

Edited February 28, 2020 by dkCambridgeshire

[wlaidlaw]

The 21 Super Angulon will be going back to the London shop. It has significant Schneideritis plus the lens hood, that was shown in their photograph of the lens, is missing. Given that lens hoods are going for around £150, I can buy a much better lens with a hood for the purchase price + £150. When you shine a light through the lens, it has loads of white speckles and streaks, which look almost as if someone had pulled a dusty cleaning brush across the internal element surfaces. I assume this is an optical artefact from the deteriorated edge enamel. Whereas I accept it may not affect the image much, this would certainly affect its re-saleability considerably. 

Wilson

[dkCambridgeshire]

44 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

The 21 Super Angulon will be going back to the London shop. It has significant Schneideritis plus the lens hood, that was shown in their photograph of the lens, is missing. Given that lens hoods are going for around £150, I can buy a much better lens with a hood for the purchase price + £150. When you shine a light through the lens, it has loads of white speckles and streaks, which look almost as if someone had pulled a dusty cleaning brush across the internal element surfaces. I assume this is an optical artefact from the deteriorated edge enamel. Whereas I accept it may not affect the image much, this would certainly affect its re-saleability considerably. 

Wilson

Wilson, Sorry to hear the lens is not as advertised … it looked fine in their description /photos. I've also experienced a similar problem 2 weeks ago with another dealer … a s/h Nikkor arrived with a missing front lens securing ring! And the front element looked as if it was secured with adhesive  … whereas the lens sales description clearly showed a photo with the securing ring. Dealer advised, " Apologies … lens listed in error  ". And a friend received a s/h lens from a SW dealer (yes, that one!) last week minus its lens hood … it had been described as Mint- with no indication of the missing hood! 

dunk

Edited February 28, 2020 by dkCambridgeshire

[wlaidlaw]

Given that this is already my second attempt to buy a 21mm Super Angulon-R (the first one turned out to be a 2 cam model when advertised as a 3 cam), I am thinking that maybe a bird in the hand ......etc. I know that its imaging is just fine on my SL601 with an R to L adapter and the rest of the lens, appearance, focus smoothness and diaphragm clicks are good. I have spoken to someone else and his opinion was that if the Schneideritis is not blatantly visible to the naked eye, without shining a bright LED light though it, it is probably as good as most of these lenses, which will all have a degree of this problem. I have therefore said to Aperture that if they can find the lens hood, I will keep the lens. 

Wilson

[Martin K]

We should also remember that Leitz/Leica offered an upgrade service to fit the 3rd cam once the R3 was launched. I had a 21mm Super Angulon-R that was upgraded this way. Unfortunately I no longer posses this lens to show an image of the upgraded cams. Hence it is quite possible that lenses manufactured prior to the launch date of the R3 are now offered with the 3rd cam.

Martin

[eev776]

My question may sound stupid, but where do you find a serial number on Super Angulon R f4 Lens, is the number written on the front of the lens after Leitz Wetzlar?

[wlaidlaw]

2 minutes ago, eev776 said:

My question may sound stupid, but where do you find a serial number on Super Angulon R f4 Lens, is the number written on the front of the lens after Leitz Wetzlar?

Yes after Wetzlar see photo below. If you are buying one, make sure you get a hood with it. The hoods are now fetching over £150. The seller forgot to send the hood with my Super Angulon and I said I would return it unless they found the hood, which luckily they did. It has a chipped corner on the hood, which I  am going to repair today with Miilliput black epoxy putty. 

Wilson

 

 

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[eev776]

13 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Yes after Wetzlar see photo below. If you are buying one, make sure you get a hood with it. The hoods are now fetching over £150. The seller forgot to send the hood with my Super Angulon and I said I would return it unless they found the hood, which luckily they did. It has a chipped corner on the hood, which I  am going to repair today with Miilliput black epoxy putty. 

Wilson

 

 

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Thank you for letting me know that is what I thought. I got it with the hood on my Leica CL body, I been using it for two days now, there is pros and cons though. Two adapters stacked R-M and M-L mount.

Edited March 7, 2020 by eev776

[wlaidlaw]

I stacked the R to M and M to L adapters for a while, then blew the dust out of my wallet and bought the R to L adapter. I am using R lenses a lot more on my SL and CL since I did that. I prefer using my TTArtisans 21/1.5 with the M to L adapter to the Super Angulon on the CL. Optics have obviously moved on a long way since the f4 Super Angulon was designed in the 1960's (but from an earlier 1950's design). The very cheap TTArtisans lens is better (sharper in the corners and less vignetting) at pretty much every aperture than the Super Angulon. 

Wilson

Edited March 7, 2020 by wlaidlaw