Sportinlife Posted February 17, 2020 Share #1 Posted February 17, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Some photos for your review and comment Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306552-1946-iiic-modified-to-iiif-with-army-markings/?do=findComment&comment=3914836'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 17, 2020 Posted February 17, 2020 Hi Sportinlife, Take a look here 1946 iiic modified to iiif with Army markings. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
derleicaman Posted February 17, 2020 Share #2 Posted February 17, 2020 (edited) Interesting and unique font on the engraving. Not 100% sure, but this does look like and engraving style that E. Leitz was using in war time and immediate post-war time period. Depending upon which serial number list you are looking at, it appears that this camera was produced in 1946/47. This was during a time of great uncertainty in Germany and at Leitz, Wetzlar. A lot of the camera production went to US armed forces and the PX system. At some point later in time, the camera was converted from IIIc to IIIf black dial. Note the added sync scale under the shutter speed dial and the IIIf film reminder/ASA-DIN dial in the wind on knob. There is also a sync connection to the right of the viewfinder windows. Property of US Army engraving would imply that this camera was to be used by the military and not meant to be purchased at say and Army PX outlet store. Edited February 17, 2020 by derleicaman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 17, 2020 Share #3 Posted February 17, 2020 1 hour ago, derleicaman said: Note the added sync scale under the shutter speed dial I recall noting this in a post about sharkskin models. The usual practice for conversions of a IIIc to a IIIf Black Dial was that a screw on plate with the sync numbers was added like this one. However, if a Ic was being converted to a IIIf Black Dial it would get a completely new top plate with stamped on sync numbers and no screw on plate. I have examples of both kinds of conversion. The camera here looks genuine and it is 'in period' for a US Army purchase. I cannot comment about the engraving, though. If you ask for delivery details from the Leica Archives you will probably also get a date for the return to Wetzlar for the IIIf conversion, although it will not describe exactly the work that was done at that time. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sportinlife Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share #4 Posted February 18, 2020 Thanks for your insights. Here are two more photos. I will post photos of the blue-gray Leica leather case for it tomorrow. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306552-1946-iiic-modified-to-iiif-with-army-markings/?do=findComment&comment=3915210'>More sharing options...
Sportinlife Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share #5 Posted February 18, 2020 Blue-gray Army Leica case photos Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306552-1946-iiic-modified-to-iiif-with-army-markings/?do=findComment&comment=3915426'>More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 18, 2020 Share #6 Posted February 18, 2020 vor 23 Stunden schrieb derleicaman: Not 100% sure, but this does look like and engraving style that E. Leitz was using in war time and immediate post-war time period. I am not sure which engravings you mean: the usual on on the camera‘s top or the „special“ one on the back indicating „Property of U.S. Army“? I am almost certain that the „Army“ engraving was not done by Leitz. If you look at the „Y“ and also the “U“ or the „A“ the fonts are very unusual - to say the least. Any person at Leitz must have gone ways from his usual practice and applied a lot of „artistic phantasy“ if he did this engravings. I think engravings indicating certain proprietors were not done by Leitz, but only by the proprietors themselves. This is sure for the German wartime Leicas which have military engravings - they were never done by Leitz. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sportinlife Posted February 18, 2020 Author Share #7 Posted February 18, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, the "u" in the auf and zu, look just like the font in U.S. The rest of the capital letters look very art deco. Perhaps someone knows of other Leitz engravings of uncommon data, and their fonts? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted February 19, 2020 Share #8 Posted February 19, 2020 14 hours ago, UliWer said: I think engravings indicating certain proprietors were not done by Leitz, but only by the proprietors themselves. This is sure for the German wartime Leicas which have military engravings - they were never done by Leitz. Partly true: there are "engravings" and engravings. A lot of military engravings were done by Leitz, a thing well documented... and not only on cameras... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sportinlife Posted February 19, 2020 Author Share #9 Posted February 19, 2020 The stiffener, in the back of the leather case, pictured above, is a piece of red plastic, if that sheds any light on anything. I will try to get a photo of it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 19, 2020 Share #10 Posted February 19, 2020 20 hours ago, UliWer said: I am not sure which engravings you mean: the usual on on the camera‘s top or the „special“ one on the back indicating „Property of U.S. Army“? I am almost certain that the „Army“ engraving was not done by Leitz. If you look at the „Y“ and also the “U“ or the „A“ the fonts are very unusual - to say the least. Any person at Leitz must have gone ways from his usual practice and applied a lot of „artistic phantasy“ if he did this engravings. I think engravings indicating certain proprietors were not done by Leitz, but only by the proprietors themselves. This is sure for the German wartime Leicas which have military engravings - they were never done by Leitz. Lager has confirmed that this font or engraving style was one used by Leitz in 1945/46. He did an article on this, possibly in VIDOM 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaya Posted February 19, 2020 Share #11 Posted February 19, 2020 Here my Hefar Prop. Us Army. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306552-1946-iiic-modified-to-iiif-with-army-markings/?do=findComment&comment=3915907'>More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 19, 2020 Share #12 Posted February 19, 2020 Looks like the same font and engraving style as on the camera Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 19, 2020 Share #13 Posted February 19, 2020 vor 2 Stunden schrieb derleicaman: Lager has confirmed that this font or engraving style was one used by Leitz in 1945/46. He did an article on this, possibly in VIDOM Yes, there is an article by James Lager in Vidom No. 85 (2004) p. 9, where he shows items with the same engraving style. He particularly mentions the unusual fonts for "A", "U" and "Y" and he asks readers who can give further information about these engravings. So it seems that James Lager was not sure about the origin of the engravings in 2004. Unfortunately I don't find any follow ups about the topic in the Vidom-Archiv. One item he shows in this article is interesting: it is a Xenon No. 491729 which was delivered on 7. April 1945 to Lt. Snyder, U.S. Army. The engraving "Paul C. Snyder" on this lens shows the same style for the "u" and the "y" as the camera shown in the first posting. In the article James Lager mentions that you find a photo of a 400 mm Telyt No. 540540 mounted to the Leitz New York Leica gun RIFLE with a special finder In Lager II (Lenses) on p. 122 (The engraving for Lt. Snyder cannot be seen on the photo in the book). The Telyt was delivered to Lt. Snyder on 6. June 1946. So - but this is just my own vague theory - the engravings may have been applied not in Wetzlar but at Leitz New York (at the RIFLE's origin). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 20, 2020 Share #14 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, UliWer said: Yes, there is an article by James Lager in Vidom No. 85 (2004) p. 9, where he shows items with the same engraving style. He particularly mentions the unusual fonts for "A", "U" and "Y" and he asks readers who can give further information about these engravings. So it seems that James Lager was not sure about the origin of the engravings in 2004. Unfortunately I don't find any follow ups about the topic in the Vidom-Archiv. One item he shows in this article is interesting: it is a Xenon No. 491729 which was delivered on 7. April 1945 to Lt. Snyder, U.S. Army. The engraving "Paul C. Snyder" on this lens shows the same style for the "u" and the "y" as the camera shown in the first posting. In the article James Lager mentions that you find a photo of a 400 mm Telyt No. 540540 mounted to the Leitz New York Leica gun RIFLE with a special finder In Lager II (Lenses) on p. 122 (The engraving for Lt. Snyder cannot be seen on the photo in the book). The Telyt was delivered to Lt. Snyder on 6. June 1946. So - but this is just my own vague theory - the engravings may have been applied not in Wetzlar but at Leitz New York (at the RIFLE's origin). I think this answers your question about who Paul Snyder was and reinforces the engraving most likely being done in Wetzlar https://lhsa.org/2019/06/snyder-at-wetzlar/ Hate to say as Viewfinder editor how bad my memory is at times! Edited February 20, 2020 by derleicaman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 20, 2020 Share #15 Posted February 20, 2020 5 hours ago, derleicaman said: Hate to say as Viewfinder editor how bad my memory is at times! We can all have 'senior moments', Bill. I had one last week when I asked Jim Lager about details of a camera, where I had already got those details from the Leica Archives. The LHSA website, which is a source of a lot of great material, has been running somewhat slow in the last week or so. Server issues? Going back to the OP's camera. The US occupation in Germany ended in May 1955. It would be interesting to see when that camera went back to Wetzlar for upgrade to IIIf. It may well have spent the early part of its life from 1946 to 1955 in Germany. The Archives may have details. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sportinlife Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share #16 Posted February 20, 2020 Here is a photo of the reinforcing piece, red, sewn into the back of the blue-gray leather case. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306552-1946-iiic-modified-to-iiif-with-army-markings/?do=findComment&comment=3916448'>More sharing options...
landsknechte Posted February 21, 2020 Share #17 Posted February 21, 2020 On 2/17/2020 at 6:59 PM, willeica said: If you ask for delivery details from the Leica Archives you will probably also get a date for the return to Wetzlar for the IIIf conversion, although it will not describe exactly the work that was done at that time. William Not to hijack someone else's thread, but do you have any advice as to how to go about the process of contacting the Archives? I have a very close cousin of this camera (403xxx, similarly converted to a IIIf) that I'd love to research further. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 21, 2020 Share #18 Posted February 21, 2020 27 minutes ago, landsknechte said: Not to hijack someone else's thread, but do you have any advice as to how to go about the process of contacting the Archives? I have a very close cousin of this camera (403xxx, similarly converted to a IIIf) that I'd love to research further. Contact them at Archiv@leica-camera.com . Just quote the serial numbers and models and ask them for delivery details. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted February 21, 2020 Share #19 Posted February 21, 2020 I started another thread just a couple of weeks ago on the topic of Leica Archives. All we can do is what William says and hope that Leica Archives can catch up with the requests for information. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sportinlife Posted February 24, 2020 Author Share #20 Posted February 24, 2020 Leica archives replies: Quote In our old delivery books only the delivery date is available for this serial number.There no entries in the old repair or maintenance books. This serial number was delivered on 23.07.1946 During this time, cameras were also delivered to the US Army. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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