Leica M8 and Pro photo color space

[Shootist]

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So I take my M8 DNG file and open it in ACR. I then select ProPhoto color space. I then save in psd. I get a dialog box saying the embedded space is different from the current (PP, I assume) space. Where does the embedded space come from: you say DNG is neutral; is it then from psd? Anyway, I convert to the current (PP), go to print and tell it to let PS determine color, right? (Printer is Epson R800.)

 

TIA,

Stan Yoder

 

 

In PS go to Edit, Color Settings. Select ProPhoto and then click Save, give it a name (I chose ProPhoto) then click OK.

Let me add that in ACR you set the, what I will call the export to PS, color space, bit depth (8 or 16) and resolution. They are called Workflow Options and are accessed through the link at the bottom of the ACR window.

[Jack_Flesher]

In PS go to Edit, Color Settings. Select ProPhoto and then click Save, give it a name (I chose ProPhoto) then click OK.

 

And then make sure you set your preferences below where you select the default color space to at least warn on profile mis-matches...

 

And a basic understanding of "assign" versus "convert to" and "rendering intent" (specifically, Perceptual and Relative Colorimetric, with and without Black Point Compenstion) will be helpful.

 

Cheers,

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Just tagging off Jacks comments. A normal routine for me is my main Final Drive that I store for life is the master file 16 bit and the Color Space that I use from Joseph Holmes and also the master file i give to clients. Than i run a action for in CS3 for jpegs converted to SRGB 8 bit and maximum size compressed 1 mg. This gives the client a viewing set to work from and base decisions on printing or going to press. I never save these per say becuase there for clients and i can always go back and make them from the Master tifs. But the key here is the masters and all the work should be done at 16 bit at the large color space and than put away for safe keeping than if you want to send prints to Costco or Walmart than convert to srgb and 8 bit and size for that , different ways to save files for different media. Just shooting is over folks , now you need to learn really how to take advantage of what the M8 can do after the fact and this is very very important and really needs a lot of attention. Even after 12 years or so of digital only i am still learning but really getting the basics down is so important so you don't have to kill yourself after the fact either. Obviously this is out of the scoop of this thread and forum, so you can read a lot about this on the web and such or better yet do a workshop or digital class that gets into Raw processing and color management. okay embrassed to say after all that Jack and i are doing a workshop in Yosemite so please don't think that was a ad for it but really you may want to think about getting more educated in this area because a ordinary nice image you take can really sing with good processing and techniques. Color mangagement and raw processing are as important as the lens you use so don't ignore it.

[grober]

Will someone PLEASE publish a book containing best practice workflows for the M8!

 

-g

[Eoin]

If Aperture does not allow to set the working space than i would be drop kicking it off my machine because this is not what you want to be doing at all. You want to like Jack has said which BTW is a guru on this stuff work in a wide space and 16 bit and do all your extra work in this mode. Otherwise you are losing all the benefits of the M8 and it's wide color space on the DNG's

 

Apertures working colour space is 16bit Adobe RGB, it does not matter what you shoot it will be converted on import AFAIK. Assigning different colour spaces is only done on output from aperture.

 

However aperture allows for the viewing (soft proofing) of the image with the proofing profile should you so wish by means of view, onscreen proofing and view, proofing profile

 

Guy, what is your working space in C1? and do you ever change it?

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I use Joseph Holmes Dcam 3 color space for CS3 and C1 . LR is Prophoto and converts to Dcam in CS3 . There all pretty close at this wide space. Now i only convert to something else for printing and usally the Pro houses i will go to Adobe RGB but Walmart or Shutterfly and places like that they mostly work in SRGB so i will convert for that specifically. i will also convert to CMYK for certain clients to. one reason I mentioned having a master Tif or PSD file at 16 bits and that gives you the most color space and elbow room to than convert to specific needs. Good to hear at least Aperture is working in Adobe RGB , i thought it would be very strange if you can not select a working space. C1 Pro is probably the most giving in this area since you can use any profile made . LR is just Adobe RGB and Prophoto which is a little limiting. Than going back to what Jack said about assigning and converting to different work spaces, they are completely different in they way they act. Again we are talking at a different level here and it gets very involved but getting the basics is so important right from the get go just like a calibrated monitor without one your fishing in a dark sea of color and can't judge anything in critical form, so really hard to judge anything correctly. I asked several times for a forum section on this area alone because so many new folks coming to digital there just lost looking for real answers to thiese kinds of color issues and what direction they shall work in.

[andybarton]

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A FAQ and Hints and Tips section was on Andreas's "To Do" list (or at least on a "To Think About" list).

 

I will report this post to him, for further consideration.

[Eoin]

Another important issue for Aperture users which may have gone un-noticed is if you were to export a version of an image from aperture in PSD or TIFF the default resolution of the image is 72dpi, however if you were to open with external editor from within aperture the resolution is 300dpi. It's just a little gotcha and can be overcome by editing the export presets.

 

On another note there is anecdotal evidence that while aperture converts to 16bit RGB as it's working space which is narrower than prophoto RGB, it has been found that on export from aperture back into the prophoto RGB colour space aperture somehow managed to retain and return the extended colour values in the export.

 

Andy, a FAQ would be most welcome and a fantastic resource for the membership. There is a huge wealth of knowledge amongst the individuals here and an organised structured repository would benefit all. Twist his arm gently

[carstenw]

Andreas has actually already set up a Wiki, for which anyone can register and contribute. I am not sure if there is a link to it yet, however. I have had on my todo list for a while to add my lens code table to the Wiki, but didn't get around to it yet... I think a Wiki is a far better format than the traditional FAQ because of the possibility for everyone to add to it directly, and because of the hyperlinking.

[ChrisC]

Another important issue for Aperture users... ..export an image from aperture in PSD or TIFF the default resolution of the image is 72dpi, however if you were to open with external editor from within aperture the resolution is 300dpi. .

 

On another note there is anecdotal evidence that while aperture converts to 16bit RGB as it's working space which is narrower than prophoto RGB, it has been found that on export from aperture back into the prophoto RGB colour space aperture somehow managed to retain and return the extended colour values in the export.

 

Eoin - I am assuming there was a typing error and by '16 bit RGB' you meant Adobe RGB? Surely if information contained by a large colour space is converted to a smaller colour space which cannot entirely contain all the previous colour values, by definition colour clipping has taken place; i.e. it is thrown away and irrecoverable. I mean no offence to you, but the anecdote doesn't make sense to me. Assignation, rather than conversion, would be a different matter however.

 

This thread has revealed surprising colour management aspects to Lightroom and Aperture which I find very off-putting, I like others on the forum swap assignations of various Joe Holmes colour spaces as an integral part of image post production, anything which interferes with that would be very unwelcome.

 

..................Chris

[Eoin]

Chris, yes I meant 16bit Adobe RGB.

 

With regard to the Anecdotal tale, I was reading this post

 

Re: Working color space of Aperture/Lightroom

 

I'll leave it up to you guys to make your own judgment as to what Apple is actually doing inside if aperture.

[Jack_Flesher]

This thread has revealed surprising colour management aspects to Lightroom and Aperture which I find very off-putting,

 

Exactly... It is why I recommend one always a use a fully color-managed raw converter like C1 or even ACR. Both allow you to assign any desired working space on conversion.

 

FWIW, I use Joe's spaces too, but specifically his Prophoto variants. Since Prophoto is a 1.8 Gamma space and I edit in 2.2, the final saturations are going to be a bit off. But I find the I prefer the convenience of staying in a standardized space -- and the end results still look great

 

Cheers,

[Eoin]

OK Jack, I'll immediately bow to your wealth of knowledge, but perhaps you'd be so kind to explain to me what exactly you're talking about when you say conversion?. Are you talking about the initial decode of the DNG within the converter and assigning the profile then as the working profile you use while making image adjustment or are you talking about assigning a profile to the output be it Jpeg, tiff, psd or print?.

 

Surely if one decides Adobe RGB is the working profile of choice and decides to output in sRGB for jpeg or apply a profile for printing, how is that workflow any less colour managed?.

 

You have me totally confused now, which is not hard I may add, LOL.

 

Thanks for your explanation in advance.

[Samir Jahjah]

Exactly... It is why I recommend one always a use a fully color-managed raw converter like C1 or even ACR. Both allow you to assign any desired working space on conversion.

 

FWIW, I use Joe's spaces too, but specifically his Prophoto variants. Since Prophoto is a 1.8 Gamma space and I edit in 2.2, the final saturations are going to be a bit off. But I find the I prefer the convenience of staying in a standardized space -- and the end results still look great

 

Cheers,

 

Thanks all for these interesting reaction. What I get out f this discussion is that Aperture, contrary to Lightroom, cannot work in the Pro Photo color space.

 

However, I assume that if I stay within Aperture and export a picture in TIFF or PSD, I can assign a pro photo color space without affecting the gamut.

 

This would imply that lightroom has a clear advantage to Aperture, at least in the color space selection.

[carstenw]

Samir, when you assign a colourspace, you are reinterpreting the values. I presume you want to convert to Pro Photo RGB, not assign. Converting would not gain you anything in the conversion, but if you then did work which expanded the values used in the file, it might help. I tend to think that working in Adobe RGB until the end, and then converting to sRGB, would be the best workflow in the absence of a full Pro Photo RGB pipeline.

[Jack_Flesher]

OK Jack, I'll immediately bow to your wealth of knowledge, but perhaps you'd be so kind to explain to me what exactly you're talking about when you say conversion?. Are you talking about the initial decode of the DNG within the converter and assigning the profile then as the working profile you use while making image adjustment or are you talking about assigning a profile to the output be it Jpeg, tiff, psd or print?.

 

Surely if one decides Adobe RGB is the working profile of choice and decides to output in sRGB for jpeg or apply a profile for printing, how is that workflow any less colour managed?.

 

You have me totally confused now, which is not hard I may add, LOL.

 

Thanks for your explanation in advance.

 

I am referring to the conversion of the DNG to a working tiff.

 

IF your desired end result is an sRGB jpeg, then you are correct, there is little to be gained from editing in the Prophoto space over the Adobe RGB space to begin with. BUT there are advantages to being in a space larger than sRGB -- at least Adobe -- to begin with...

 

This has to do with HOW you convert to the smaller sRGB space. If you use RC then any of the colors outside sRGB are compessed to fit the closest color inside sRGB. If you use perceptual, the entire image is compressed to keep the overall relative appearance of the colors the same as they were in the larger space. Using BPC during either of these processes will re-zero the black point to neutral in the intended space and shift the other colors accordingly. Which you choose will be dependant on the final desired use of the file.

 

Cheers,

[Jack_Flesher]

Samir, when you assign a colourspace, you are reinterpreting the values. I presume you want to convert to Pro Photo RGB, not assign. Converting would not gain you anything in the conversion, but if you then did work which expanded the values used in the file, it might help. I tend to think that working in Adobe RGB until the end, and then converting to sRGB, would be the best workflow in the absence of a full Pro Photo RGB pipeline.

 

Exactly... Once inside your image editor, you need to CONVERT TO (not assign) the desired working space. BUT that will NOT result in a net increase of colors in the native file; any that were there were clipped out or compressed to fit inside the Adobe RGB space at conversion of the DNG. In contrast, Prophoto is large enough to contain all of the colors that are available from the M8 in its DNG... The key here is the M8 DNG can hold more colors than the Adobe RGB space can display, but remains smaller than Prophoto, so Prophoto can hold the entire gamut of the M8.

 

FWIW, the M8 DNG is probably best suited to Joe Holmes D-Cam 4 space if you are looking for the most efficient working space for the M8 while still holding all of its color potential. D-Cam 3 is more efficient still as it is smaller, yet will trim some of the very high yellows and greens. However, these rarely occur in nature, so DC-3 probably maintains 98% of the M8's available color. (I'm only making an educated guess on this last statement, so perhaps somebody who wants to take the time to compare the M8 capture space to DC-3 and 4 in Color Synch can tell us the exact story )

 

Hope this clarifies,

[Samir Jahjah]

Exactly... Once inside your image editor, you need to CONVERT TO (not assign) the desired working space. BUT that will NOT result in a net increase of colors in the native file; any that were there were clipped out or compressed to fit inside the Adobe RGB space at conversion of the DNG. In contrast, Prophoto is large enough to contain all of the colors that are available from the M8 in its DNG... The key here is the M8 DNG can hold more colors than the Adobe RGB space can display, but remains smaller than Prophoto, so Prophoto can hold the entire gamut of the M8.

 

FWIW, the M8 DNG is probably best suited to Joe Holmes D-Cam 4 space if you are looking for the most efficient working space for the M8 while still holding all of its color potential. D-Cam 3 is more efficient still as it is smaller, yet will trim some of the very high yellows and greens. However, these rarely occur in nature, so DC-3 probably maintains 98% of the M8's available color. (I'm only making an educated guess on this last statement, so perhaps somebody who wants to take the time to compare the M8 capture space to DC-3 and 4 in Color Synch can tell us the exact story )

 

Hope this clarifies,

 

This is very clear. Thanks!

[Eoin]

Thanks for the answer Jack, I'm starting to get the picture so to speak:) .

Just one more question if you will, when printing from your chosen working profile normally one would output with a profile for the printer / paper which when I look at them in colour sync are much smaller than either Adobe RGB or ProPhoto, so what is the benefit of using the larger space of ProPhoto over say Adobe RGB if the printing profile has to clip anyway?. Is there a benefit in the output?

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[carstenw]

Sure, the work can proceed in the larger space, avoiding clipping, rounding, posterisation and other issues having to do with too small spaces, or too few bits to represent the data while it is being changed. In the end, sRGB is good enough for viewing and printing.