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Yes and the first two pictures in Post #297 are unfortunately exposed different.
The S1 is exposed at ISO 100 1/250" f2.0
The M10 is at ISO 200 1/500" f2.0
So it is difficult to compare in the Highlights. The M10 shot seems at least one stop darker...

Edited by verwackelt
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vor 25 Minuten schrieb ron777:

There is a significant difference in resolution, sharpness and color in favor of the S1 on the above images but, of course, you’ve used different glass on each.  I too use C1, and agree that the software used can largely influence the end result. 

Different lens, as I said. Can’t compare for color, sharpness, and resolution at that distance. The 75 Noctilux-M is made for scenes like the first picture (from untouched DNG) here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-232Tmz/i-mj2D8kJ/A. The 75 Summicron-SL is more of an all purpose lens, optimized for sharpness. The 75 Noctilux-M is optimized for harmonious  bokeh behind and in front of the focus point. 

Edited by Chaemono
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the overexposed S1 shot is pulled 1stop down in C1. so enough leeway in the highlights.
Left S1 right M10
 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb verwackelt:

Yes and the first two pictures in Post #297 are unfortunately exposed different.
The S1 is exposed at ISO 100 1/250" f2.0
The M10 is at ISO 200 1/500" f2.0
So it is difficult to compare in the Highlights.

Not difficult at all. The cameras were shot in A mode using base ISO. I adjusted EV until the S1 didn’t show any blown Highlights. And this was with base ISO 100 at f/2 1/500 sec.

vor 7 Minuten schrieb verwackelt:

The M10 shot seems at least one stop darker...

So, it’s even more handicapped.

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb verwackelt:

the overexposed S1 shot is pulled 1stop down in C1. so enough leeway in the highlights.
Left S1 right M10
 

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I’ll get the SL next weekend and use the same lens. The difference in Highlight treatment will become more evident. 

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Chaemono:
vor 13 Minuten schrieb verwackelt:

The M10 shot seems at least one stop darker...

So, it’s even more handicapped.

But not for that Highlights thing. 1 stop underexposure and you got much better Highlightdetails


it would be interesting if you could provide the shots with same lens and shot at native ISO of sensor (i know there is not really such an ISO behavior compared to film) to have more equal parameter for comparison.

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vor 17 Minuten schrieb verwackelt:

 

But not for that Highlights thing. 1 stop underexposure and you got much better Highlightdetails


it would be interesting if you could provide the shots with same lens and shot at native ISO of sensor (i know there is not really such an ISO behavior compared to film) to have more equal parameter for comparison.

I'll see what I can do tonight.

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I've now been through several thousand SR1 images and compared them with a random selection of SL images.

1. I can find no evidence of banding on the SR1 when pushing shadows in the iso range I have used ...... I've only a handful of shots beyond 1600 .... and most of them are by accident. 

2. I can find no evidence of a general trend to blowing highlights ..... with centre weighted metering anyway ..... and no greater tendency than on the SL. Those shots that do have blown highlights are either inevitable given the circumstances or due to user error ..... and in many the degree is minor and detail recoverable despite what LR indicates. 

 

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s1r with 90-280

 

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s1r with 50/1.4 SL

 

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Edited by tom0511
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Hard to see if there is banding in a couple of low res highly compressed shots on a forum page. Personally I think each individual needs to test uder their specific shooting conditions and style. It may be great for one and fall apart if something is changed. I'll likely do less than a hundred shots a year above 1600 ISO so pushing 5 stops at 3200 is irrelevant to me.

I'll be doing my own testing this week against my X1D, A7R3 and Z7, however from casual shooting it already looks like it can be pushed about the same as the Sony. I've shot up to ISO 6400 but not in a controlled way . Maybe a bit more or a bit less but likely not significant. The Z7 is a smidge better and the X1D is in a class of its own (except for the five other cameras that use the same sensor :) ).

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

Hard to see if there is banding in a couple of low res highly compressed shots on a forum page.

That’s why there are links to the RAW files, but granted only one where green shadow cast is evident. Still, my impression so far, great at base ISO, files are very malleable, downwards after that. 

vor 6 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

It may be great for one and fall apart if something is changed. I'll likely do less than a hundred shots a year above 1600 ISO

Files should still hold up to the best FF cameras out there. These are 2019 sensors. Maybe the price points of these Panasonics justify such reasoning. The SL2 using either of their sensors at a rumored price of 7,500 EUR to 9,000 EUR, and people will rip it apart. 

Edited by Chaemono
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2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Files should still hold up to the best FF cameras out there. These are 2019 sensors. Maybe the price points of these Panasonics justify such reasoning. The SL2 using either of their sensors at a rumored price of 7,500 EUR to 9,000 EUR, and people will rip it apart. 

People have been ripping apart Leica sensors since the M8. Constant whinging about whether or not they match the "best" and how a 10K camera should do this and that. Nothing new at all. And still every new camera except the CL has had months of waiting lists at release. Leica, as always will do what they please, when they please and it'll be up to each of us to buy it or not. I can't see that it'll have a different sensor to the Q2.

A good sensor is great but it's also only one part of a camera system. Sure, some people *need* cutting edge sensors and some have real issues(eg: Sony star eaters). Some photographers make great use of the expanded shooting envelope. But for many it's a way to get away with sloppy technique. Most scenes don't need the huge DR we have. Honestly, I dodn't think I know a photographer who shoots regularly at much over 3200 ISO. It seems like the commentators who think you need a 1DX to photograph the grandkids.

 I certainly don't want a *bad* sensor. The reality is that there are actually no bad sensors in modern established cameras, except for Instagram influencers and YouTube experts who make a half stop difference seem like the end of the world. They make it seem like it's a huge gulf between the best and the rest when in the real world the differences are tiny. I'm replacing a few cameras that are considered to have *better* sensors with the S1R because the cameras with *better* sensor are awful cameras to use. What's the point of a better sensor if the QC on lens manufacture is all over the place like a burst bag of hundreds and thousands? I don't care how good a sensor is if I have to force my fingers into the gap between the body and lens, or if the thing is so front heavy my arms get sore. For example the Fuji GFX50R has a sensational sensor, but it's not at all comfortable to handhold all day. The X1D has the same great sensor but it's hopeless for spontaneous shooting because it takes all day to boot up or astro because it's near impossible to focus on the sky at night (I found that out myself). The Z7 has a great sensor. Just don't try the tracking AF, yet. The Canon 50R has a very average sensor but I've seen incredible images from people who actually take photos.

Sensor testing is vital. Everyone should do it with every new camera they get. But not to see how it measures up. Instead to see how they can get the most from the sensor they have. I just can't see how one can prioritise the sensor over the handling, balance, viewfinder, lenses, operation and functionality. For example the SL2 may have the best sensor ever made but if it has mandatory LENR it's useless to me. OTOH if it has the S1R sensor and EVF, no mandatory LENR and the SL's usability, I'll be first in line. Sure, test the sensor. Find its limitations. Just remember that within those limitations are an infinite number of possibilities. I'll test my S1R sensor for my usage because I bought it to get more out of those spectacular SL lenses. I bought it because it has no mandatory LENR. When I'm shooting with it I'll not be worrying about whether I should have brought my X1D, ^45Z, Z7 or A7R3 because they'll be at home, except the Sony which will be sold.

To me worrying about a modern sensor, for most people, is the same commentary that said the SL and S1 are too big. I think that any modern sensor is the last thing in a long line that'll limit my photography. I like a great sensor as much as the next guy. I own most of the best sensors available. But they don't really make my photography better unless the rest of the system is up to the task.

Gordon

Edited by FlashGordonPhotography
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5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Files should still hold up to the best FF cameras out there. These are 2019 sensors. Maybe the price points of these Panasonics justify such reasoning. The SL2 using either of their sensors at a rumored price of 7,500 EUR to 9,000 EUR, and people will rip it apart. 

..... not forgetting that Leica is condemned to making the sensor compatible with a long list of M lenses ..... some of which pose significant challenges optically which makes yet another hurdle that they have to overcome. The Q2 sensor and the use of the old Maestro II processor in the S3 is a worry. I'd love Leica to steal a march on other manufacturers and come up with something that has the image quality of the X1D in FF but I fear it may be asking too much in 2019. Even if it is ripped apart by reviewers I suspect the trusty old red dot will keep the factory busy ......:rolleyes: ....... but for once I may not be at the front of the queue ....

Edited by thighslapper
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vor 5 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

The SL2 using either of their sensors at a rumored price of 7,500 EUR to 9,000 EUR

The SL2 will be of course intensively tested and compared to the S1R. The SL2 must offer an extraordinary IQ and special features to justify a price almost 250% above the S1R.
So i think SL2 must be offered in the price region of the former SL to be competitive…

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

People have been ripping apart Leica sensors since the M8.

+1. Thanks for your thoughts and Thighslapper’s. Very helpful. No matter how often a new M was released with a sensor that lagged the ‘best’ out there (BTW and besides the point, M10 sensor is wonderful at ISO 200 to 640 vs. Sony and holds up really well at ISO 3200 vs. S1 for color and noise, same lens), the M was the optimum body to use M-mount lenses (corner performance, legacy glass, and adapter reflections). Plus, the rangefinder and the OVF with the patch are a unique experience (love the OVF when I switch lenses from the S1, 7R III, or Z7 to do comparisons. It’s like a breath of fresh air). After the L-mount alliance, this is no longer the case for SL lenses. They can be used ‘natively’ on brand new, 2019, FF bodies with IBIS for 2,500 USD to 3,700 USD. The SL2, whenever it comes, with an ‘equally’ performing sensor as either of the two Panasonics is DOA commercially at price points three times as high. And Thighslapper, a long time Leica user I suppose, proves this in the last sentence of his post.

Edited by Chaemono
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