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Images from Panasonic L-Mount cameras


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Not particularly interesting picture but sharpness of image with Leica 24-90. Closer one is 100% crop of other one. 

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On 3/19/2019 at 6:51 AM, thighslapper said:

I suspect this is the issue ...... but it does raise the question of how the SL manages to produce a perfect screen image and meter correctly with a 10 stop ND at ISO 50 in normal lighting and continues to function accurately in even lower light conditions.  

The S1R in the same light levels at ISO 100 shows a dimmed screen even with a 6 stop ND and underexposes by 2.5 stops. I'm not that fussed about the display but the inaccuracy of exposure metering ..... in conditions where I would expect things to work fine.

I fear that my expectations after extensive use of the SL with long exposures, low light and high value ND's are not going to be matched by Panasonics offering. The only question is whether all the other advantages outweigh the 5% of occasions where it will irritate me because it can't do what the SL does .....

Could this be another instance where the SL, with the less than state of the art MP count turns out to be a very well conceived, well made camera ... just saying.

I’ll be keeping mine.

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb bags27:

What do I know? I have just the Q and CL and a couple of Leica lenses. But I'm very interested in this conversation, in lieu of a reasonably priced (ha!) or smaller form (almost equally ha!) SL2. But I have to say, none of these photos looks as sharp as what I'm used to seeing on this forum. The16-35 is one of the greatest lenses I've ever seen, and I never cease to be amazed by how easy it is "to fall into" the photo. I'm really sorry to say it, but I don't at all see that here. 

I'm not saying these things to be mean. I think it's a really important discussion to have as soon as possible, and others might say I'm totally whacked on this question, and I'd accept their more experienced opinion and eye.

The Panasonics can blow Highlights if one isn't careful and the files are not very malleable, show tons of color banding when Shadows/Exposure are lifted. I used the M10 with 75 Noctilux and S1 with 75 Summicron-SL (I did not want to change lenses) here. I set EV to -2/3 on the M10 in A mode and I had to use -2 EV on the S1 in A mode in order to protect Highlights. The RAW files in the first link are at base ISO for both cameras and in A mode. The RAW files in the second link are at ISO 1600 and in manual mode. 

I'll do the same test with the SL instead of the M10 because the 75 Summicron-SL produces super clean images in high contrast situations and I want to use the same lens. But here I just wanted to see how the S1 dealt with Highlights and how much the files can be pushed. I don't have access to the S1R, yet, but I'm sure the files will behave similarly. The only thing positive about these Panasonic sensors, as far as I can tell, is that the S1 has low noise and still nice colors at high ISO and that the S1R has nice colors and one can print really large or crop a lot. Malleability of files and treatment of Highlights/Shadows should be the priority for the sensor in the SL2. I think Leica knows this and I'm glad they are taking their time.

 

M10 + 75 Noctilux at ISO 200, EV -2/3 in A mode, f/2 vs. S1 + 75 Summicron-SL at ISO 100, EV -2 in A mode, f/2. RAW files here:

S1 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g684035735-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=LMXa2k9b-o5PvWeOgqS004kcvoaDVmTaepFhQDj-Qgo=

M10 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g924827584-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=DRggR1MXxyJeLmQJDJhy1AC4hWy1lfTxmCGmUyp-cwI=

 

M10 + 75 Noctilux at ISO 1600, f/2 vs. S1 + 75 Summicron-SL at ISO 1600, f/2. RAW files here:

S1 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g604077211-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=moFPqURfKxfpP-hkVCcOd0AzbyvmZagYVjbJG8X2lew=

M10 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g790268722-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=T5_wtCThoO5oMZGv5SEkKkFkmfuFaDKNk45qpEB1bGA=

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

The Panasonics can blow Highlights if one isn't careful and the files are not very malleable, show tons of color banding when Shadows/Exposure are lifted. I used the M10 with 75 Noctilux and S1 with 75 Summicron-SL (I did not want to change lenses) here.

i am still very curios to see some examples with the blown highlights and banding compared to the SL or similar cameras. Do you have a link ?

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4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Could this be another instance where the SL, with the less than state of the art MP count turns out to be a very well conceived, well made camera ... just saying.

I’ll be keeping mine.

John ...... I've repeated these tests and it is clear I was pushing the camera to the very limits ...... and the difference with the SL under identical conditions was marginal. I doubt I will ever be using a 10 stop ND indoors or at dusk anytime soon ..... so it doesn't represent conditions you are likely to face in normal use. :)

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3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The Panasonics can blow Highlights if one isn't careful and the files are not very malleable, show tons of color banding when Shadows/Exposure are lifted.

You do keep banging on about this ...... but I can't find any colour banding in S1R images that I have ....... some noise, yes, but what there is doesn't look much different to the SL ..... and I can find banding in many SL images. From my experimentation it is VERY image specific in terms of how obtrusive/unobtrusive the noise is (on both cameras)  .... and usually at processing levels of adjustment that no sane person would engage in..... 

these are the WORST examples I can find from a quick rummage through some files, these are unprocessed apart from pushing shadows and exposure.....

S1R: iso 320

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100% crop +100 shadows in LR, +2stops exposure ....

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SL  iso 50:

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100% crop +100 shadows in LR, +2stops exposure ....

I suppose all this business might matter if you are taking pictures of black cats in coal mines illuminated solely by candlelight ..... but the rest of us get by by bracketing etc. If you are that keen on the resultant ultra HDR look then maybe you need another camera ...... or more helpfully some therapy to cure you of this unfortunate affliction ....

Edited by thighslapper
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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Please, it’s everyone’s right to express their opinion about how great these sensors or how crap they are. Get yourself some therapy for attacking others.

:unsure: .....  "If you are that keen ........."  was a general statement meaning 'you' the reader ...... not 'you' in person !

Edited by thighslapper
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8 hours ago, Chaemono said:

The Panasonics can blow Highlights if one isn't careful and the files are not very malleable, show tons of color banding when Shadows/Exposure are lifted. I used the M10 with 75 Noctilux and S1 with 75 Summicron-SL (I did not want to change lenses) here. I set EV to -2/3 on the M10 in A mode and I had to use -2 EV on the S1 in A mode in order to protect Highlights. The RAW files in the first link are at base ISO for both cameras and in A mode. The RAW files in the second link are at ISO 1600 and in manual mode. 

I'll do the same test with the SL instead of the M10 because the 75 Summicron-SL produces super clean images in high contrast situations and I want to use the same lens. But here I just wanted to see how the S1 dealt with Highlights and how much the files can be pushed. I don't have access to the S1R, yet, but I'm sure the files will behave similarly. The only thing positive about these Panasonic sensors, as far as I can tell, is that the S1 has low noise and still nice colors at high ISO and that the S1R has nice colors and one can print really large or crop a lot. Malleability of files and treatment of Highlights/Shadows should be the priority for the sensor in the SL2. I think Leica knows this and I'm glad they are taking their time.

 

M10 + 75 Noctilux at ISO 200, EV -2/3 in A mode, f/2 vs. S1 + 75 Summicron-SL at ISO 100, EV -2 in A mode, f/2. RAW files here:

S1 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g684035735-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=LMXa2k9b-o5PvWeOgqS004kcvoaDVmTaepFhQDj-Qgo=

M10 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g924827584-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=DRggR1MXxyJeLmQJDJhy1AC4hWy1lfTxmCGmUyp-cwI=

 

M10 + 75 Noctilux at ISO 1600, f/2 vs. S1 + 75 Summicron-SL at ISO 1600, f/2. RAW files here:

S1 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g604077211-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=moFPqURfKxfpP-hkVCcOd0AzbyvmZagYVjbJG8X2lew=

M10 https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g790268722-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=T5_wtCThoO5oMZGv5SEkKkFkmfuFaDKNk45qpEB1bGA=

What am I missing here?  I downloaded files from the first two links, pushed shadows 100+, and increased exposure +2.7.  I don't find that either camera has a significant advantage over the other after these extreme adjustments, and if anything the noise in the S1 looks more akin to film noise than that of the M10.  That said, what is the point?  Both of the these files would have ended up in the trash bin.

 

Edited by relms
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The first pair is not about the malleability of the files. I thought I wrote so. They are at base ISO and were taken in A mode. Check the EXIF data for the EV adjustment each camera required in A mode to protect Highlights. The M10 required -2/3, the S1 -2. 

Download the ISO 1600 files. Lift Shadows by 100, pull back Highlights by 50, push Exposure by two stops in the S1 file and match it in the histogram of the M10 picute in LR, or whatever else you use. Do you see the green color banding on the left hand side of the S1 picture?

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How are these findings relevant to everyday or, for that matter, fine art photography?  Or is this a mission to push the limits in an attempt to find fault?  

Slightly off topic, but I've taken images, handheld, with the S1R and Vario-elmar 24-90mm in a room lit only with a 50W, LED light bulb, ISO 6400 and camera set to Programmed.  Color was spot on, no visible banding, images were sharp and while there was some noise, it was quite filmic and not a image detractor.

Edited by ron777
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First, maybe not relevant but good to know the limits of a sensor in order to avoid situations where issues might occur. Two, green cast when Shadows are pushed is such a 2013 M240 issue. See here: 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/229863-correcting-the-green-shadows/

and here: 

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/characterizing-the-leica-m240-part-22/

One would think that in 2019 this has been fixed. And three, people here are asking and wondering how good these Panasonic sensors are.

 

Edited by Chaemono
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Understood, and from an educational viewpoint the findings are informative.  And I agree, that if the green cast, under those extreme circumstances, has been an issue across different lines of sensors it should have been addressed during the conceptualization of subsequently produced sensors.  However, it doesn't appear to be an issue with most photographic situations, and most of us do not push our files that hard in post, because the necessity would tend to indicate that the images had not been properly exposed.  And that's where exposure bracketing shows its value.

I am not any manufacturer's fan boy, and I've owned Leica's for as long as l can recall, but I can truthfully say that the S1R is the first camera that is not only technologically advanced, but takes great images and feels good in hand.  Is it the epitome of perfection? i doubt that anything could meet that test, although my ex-girlfriend would take issue with that statement.

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Chaemono:

Download the ISO 1600 files. Lift Shadows by 100, pull back Highlights by 50, push Exposure by two stops in the S1 file and match it in the histogram of the M10 picute in LR, or whatever else you use. Do you see the green color banding on the left hand side of the S1 picture?

Maybe it is a software thing.
I use C1 not LR and did the adjustments you mentioned to the 1600 ISO files.
Left is S1 right is M10. i see more informations in depth of the S1 and better sharpness in general- but no banding and no blown highlights...

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And much better colourseparation of the S1. But not forget the different Lenses the shots were taken...
AND nowadays the software is very important and makes huge differences.
I think it is much too early to blame one camera for specific behavior...
Left S1 right M10 
just C1 screenshots

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Edited by verwackelt
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There is a significant difference in resolution, sharpness and color in favor of the S1 on the above images but, of course, you’ve used different glass on each.  I too use C1, and agree that the software used can largely influence the end result. 

Edited by ron777
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