Images from Panasonic L-Mount cameras

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S1R + Leica Noctilux-M 50mm wide open, 1/125, ISO 800.

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I apologize for the kitchen shot, but I am working long hours this week; therefore, my subject matter is limited.  I find the Noctilux easy to focus on the S1R, and that the gray focus peaking outline is very accurate.  My biggest disappointment is that the S1R does not pass along the lens data to Bridge or Lightroom as does the SL.

  

[AlanYWM]

7 hours ago, mdemeyer said:

As mentioned, this was extensively looked into with the Sony A7r and other cameras. It turns out that the conventional wisdom of “shorter shutter speed is better” doesn’t always apply here.  There tends to be a shutter speed range below and above which the problem is minimized.  Above because the exposure is very short.  Below the range because the period during which the camera vibrates is a smaller part of the total exposure.  

You can find lots of solid research on this topic on Jim Kasson’s site by searching for the words “shutter shock”.   Here is a link to tests showing that longer exposures can actually reduce the problem, again, going against conventional wisdom.

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-shutter-shock-at-long-exposures/

He also has tests of the new Nikon Mirrorless models and various SLRs.  If you want to really understand this issue, take the time to study his work  

Not a new problem to the Panasonic and electronic first curtain is generally the best solution without causing the other problems with slower read rates of fully electronic shutters. 

I think the S1R issue is not as simple as that. It seems to be focal length dependent. Anything above 100mm will have this blur effect. Use a shorter lens (less than 100mm) and you can choose mechanical shutter with any shutter speed and there is no problem Any explanation for this?

First time trying to insert image. S1R with M 75mm @ f1.25

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[DigitalHeMan]

On 4/8/2019 at 8:55 PM, bags27 said:

FWIW, and that's an honest question, Steve Huff seems to prefer the S1 + M lenses to the SL + M lenses (doesn't like the S1R: sweet spot for him is 24 mps. I can well understand that). Little question from the high iso test that the Panny does a lot better, but a lot of folks rarely need shoot that high of course. And over the past couple of years, he's proclaimed the SL his favorite camera....ever, again, FWIW. Personally, I'd have to really be convinced of the Panny's UI, but maybe that's just me. 

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/07/the-panasonic-s1-with-leica-m-lenses-canon-ef-as-well/

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/06/the-panasonic-s1-vs-leica-sl-high-iso-test/

I watched the video as well yesterday, and Steve was his usual enthusiastic self with a new camera  I did note though that whilst he says ‘Leica M Lenses’, the only lense he tried in earnest (he did after all only use it for one evening) was a Voigtlander 35mm. I’m still really interested to see how it holds up with some of the wider Leica lenses (21, 28mm etc). 

At this point, I’m trying to weigh up between buying just an M10 body, or buying an S1 plus a Summi 35mm, both option costing a similar amount  I’ve still got an M9, so I have the rangefinder shooting experience when I want it, so if I can be convinced of the S1 capabilities with wide angles, that may tip the balance.....

[michali]

On 4/8/2019 at 6:09 PM, thighslapper said:

A quick update on issues with using IBIS on non native mount lenses ......

it is EXTREMELY focal length sensitive ...... and if using any lenses where FL is not communicated to the camera it must be manually entered into the camera .... otherwise images will show movement, even at shutter speeds where you would expect to see none even without OIS. 

You've stated it quite clearly above, so my question may sound stupid. I just need to be 100% sure before I take the plunge & pay for the S1R , please confirm that this phenomenon seems to appear only on non- L mount lenses? As mentioned earlier I plan to marry the S1R up with my Leica V/E SL 90-280mm....

Thanks,

Mike

 

[thighslapper]

36 minutes ago, michali said:

You've stated it quite clearly above, so my question may sound stupid. I just need to be 100% sure before I take the plunge & pay for the S1R , please confirm that this phenomenon seems to appear only on non- L mount lenses? As mentioned earlier I plan to marry the S1R up with my Leica V/E SL 90-280mm....

Thanks,

Mike

 

All the Leica SL and TL lenses work perfectly ...... and in body IBIS is far better than the lens OIS offered by Leica in the 24-90 and 90-280. 

 

[thighslapper]

Just a note confirming Alan's observations:

With the 80-200 R (ROM) and the official L-R adapter:

The lens transmits the focal length to the S1R so no manual adjustment is needed. 

Using a tripod and remote release images with the mechanical shutter up to 100mm or so are sharp. Above 100mm or so they are progressively degraded. 

This happens with IBIS on or off. 

With the electronic shutter, images are tack sharp whatever FL is used. 

The same situation with mechanical versus electronic shutter exists with handheld images. 

Handheld, you can get perfectly sharp images with IBIS down 1/20 sec at 200mm ..... but ONLY if you use the electronic shutter.

The obvious conclusion is that it is all down to the mechanical shutter. Presumably for each FL there is also a point where shutter speed is fast enough to negate the effect. I'm not bothering to test for that as it doesn't make much practical difference to the problem. 

The situation is the same with lenses on the M-L and Novoflex AF adapters. With the Sigma 135/1.8 using the ES improves image quality. 

Whatever ..... the upshot is that using non L mount lenses > 100mm you will need to use the electronic shutter to achieve optimum results. 

I already have 'silent mode' which includes ES as the first item on the Q menu so it is only a single button press away. 

No doubt for someone who uses non L mount telephoto lenses extensively indoors under artificial lighting or fast moving sports action involving panning will be shouting 'deal breaker!' 

Nb ...... there is an 'Electronic Front Curtain' setting that is specifically designed for this issue ...... but the option is greyed out and unavailable with the R-L ,M-L and Novoflex AF adapters (it does appear with the L mount SL lenses). As the issue seems entirely confined to non native lenses this is daft. The manual notes it's not available with APS-C lenses, but no mention of anything else. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by thighslapper

[mdemeyer]

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4 hours ago, AlanYWM said:

I think the S1R issue is not as simple as that. It seems to be focal length dependent. Anything above 100mm will have this blur effect. Use a shorter lens (less than 100mm) and you can choose mechanical shutter with any shutter speed and there is no problem Any explanation for this?

First time trying to insert image. S1R with M 75mm @ f1.25

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Not without testing a specific lens, but clearly longer lenses magnify the effect of angular displacement and change the center of mass of the mounted camera, which could also be a factor.   I don’t remember how much Jim investigated those factors but it would be worth a cruise through his web site to see. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by mdemeyer

[helged]

Regarding the use of the electronic shutter with moving subjects (and ignoring the additional complication of artificial light for in-house shooting); I am converging towards that most situations work fine. But of course, cases can be found where artefacts occur - quick bird/animal motions and quickly moving insect wings may pose problems. Perhaps we could get some image examples showing ES artefacts? A bee's wings are shown below, from an earlier thread. And since I haven't received the S1R yet, my experience is limited to 3.5 yr of use of the SL.

 

[gbpost]

vor einer Stunde schrieb thighslapper:

Using a tripod and remote release images with the mechanical shutter up to 100mm or so are sharp. Above 100mm or so they are progressively degraded. 

This happens with IBIS on or off. 

 

I had the impression that the mechanical shutter is well damped while playing around with the S1r for 20 minutes at a dealer.

However, I think about the bug that the IBIS system moves the sensor randomly even with IBIS switched off, if a non L mount lens is used. It is only software.. And only using the electronic shutter and IBIS switched off has no IBIS movement anymore.  Mitght this be apossible explanation from your experience with the camera?

[thighslapper]

36 minutes ago, gbpost said:

I had the impression that the mechanical shutter is well damped while playing around with the S1r for 20 minutes at a dealer.

However, I think about the bug that the IBIS system moves the sensor randomly even with IBIS switched off, if a non L mount lens is used. It is only software.. And only using the electronic shutter and IBIS switched off has no IBIS movement anymore.  Mitght this be apossible explanation from your experience with the camera?

Possible, difficult to prove and unlikely.

I think the obvious, known problem of shutter shock is much more likely. 

Whether it is down to moving the whole camera due to vibrations or just the sensor in its IBIS mount is another matter.

If it was the former you would expect IBIS to help the situation ..... but in my testing this morning it doesn't seem to do much, if anything. 

That leaves the latter .... I doubt that a linear increase in resolution of 33% would be enough to cause the issue alone. 

As you say the shutter is very quiet and gives the impression it is well damped. 

Edited April 10, 2019 by thighslapper

[thighslapper]

This is the sort of difference you are looking at....... 80-200 R at f8, 200mm, tripod 1/8 sec iso 100 (unprocessed RAW), 100% crops

Mechanical Shutter:

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Electronic Shutter:

Edited April 10, 2019 by thighslapper

[thighslapper]

Just to confuse things I've repeated all the above with the R 280/2.8 with and without 1.4 and 2x teleconverters. (ie 785mm)

Surprisingly images are sharp throughout most of the shutter range I tried (1/40 to 1/250) when on a tripod. No difference with IBIS on or off, even if set to the incorrect focal length (on a tripod). Changing to the electronic shutter makes a slight but noticeable increase in sharpness at the 1/40 sec end. It is nothing like as noticeable as in the images above. The only proviso is that this was at relatively close distance indoors, as outdoors today is again very windy. 

Handheld is another story ...... but if you can handhold this combination without wobbling wildly then you must be built like The Rock. 

The only significant difference is the 280 has a tripod mount close to the centre of gravity, and although it wobbles easily even on a rock solid tripod, possibly the frequency of oscillation set up by any shutter movement is much lower due to the inertia in the arrangement. Unlike the previous speculation, that does tend to suggest camera rather than sensor movement. 

I suspect the magnitude of issues will turn out to be lens dependent and how they are used ......

Edited April 10, 2019 by thighslapper

[thighslapper]

Ventured outside ...... there is a bit more difference with distant objects .... but still nowhere near as much as the 80-200...

This is a mesh cowl on a chimney pot about 60m away 100% crop making the image width about 10cm ...... f8, 1/30sec, iso 100, 280/2.8 with both teleconverters making 785mm. Bear in mind this lens is 36 years old ....

Mechanical Shutter:

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Electronic shutter:

Edited April 10, 2019 by thighslapper

[ron777]

From a logical perspective, shutter shock is the most likely explanation for the IQ differences noted with and without E shutter.  But it would appear that none of the employed lenses embodied IOS, or IOS that is functional on the S1 or S1R bodies.  And since it has been established in the past that OIS is more effective than IBIS for long lenses, is its not possible that Panasonic's own eventual and likely stabilized telephotos might serve to mitigate the problem?  The fact that the Leica lenses are "compatible" with the S series does not mean that they, as already proven by the lack of OIS functionality, are meant to operate as replicas of lenses designed specifically for the S series.

Although it might not be long enough, I wonder if anyone has yet to put Panasonic's stabilized S 70-200mm to this test?

 

Edited April 10, 2019 by ron777

[AlanYWM]

39 minutes ago, ron777 said:

From a logical perspective, shutter shock is the most likely explanation for the IQ differences noted with and without E shutter.  But it would appear that none of the employed lenses embodied IOS, or IOS that is functional on the S1 or S1R bodies.  And since it has been established in the past that OIS is more effective than IBIS for long lenses, is its not possible that Panasonic's own eventual and likely stabilized telephotos might serve to mitigate the problem?  The fact that the Leica lenses are "compatible" with the S series does not mean that they, as already proven by the lack of OIS functionality, are meant to operate as replicas of lenses designed specifically for the S series.

Although it might not be long enough, I wonder if anyone has yet to put Panasonic's stabilized S 70-200mm to this test?

 

I think the issue is more complex than just shutter vibration or the lack of OIS on the lens. As long as the focal length of the adapted lens is below 100mm, the images were sharp even at low shutter speeds. This is with or without IBIS. Obviously with the 3 Panasonic lenses, there is no issue. I have tested all three lenses at low shutter speeds (1/40sec and below) and all the images were tack sharp. So native lenses do not exhibit this problem. I did not test the Leica 90-280mm so I can't be 100% sure with this lens but I would not be surprised if it works perfectly on the S1/R. Below sample image was taken with the Panasonic 70-200 f4 at 200mm using a shutter speed of 1/40sec.

What is puzzling me is why this phenomenon is occurring on Lumix S1R and not on Sony's a9 and a7RIII cameras? What is the secret sauce used by Sony? 😆

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[AlanYWM]

Despite the small glitch, I am want to add that I have no regrets getting the Lumix S1R. Hopefully, Panasonic will issue a firmware upgrade in the near future to resolve this glitch.

Technically, the S1/R is a fantastic camera. A little big and heavy for my hands but still manageable. I much prefer the grip on this camera than the one on the SL. What I really like about this camera is the excellent EVF and IBIS. And the camera is so customisable that once it is set up properly, it is a breeze to use. And personally for me, it is perfect for my M and R lenses.  Especially those on the heavy side 😄 Manual focusing on this camera is so easy and precise. I also look forward to using the Sigma MC-21, which I believe will be much better than the Novoflex adapter for Canon lenses.

[thighslapper]

I have tried every combination with the SL 90-280 at 280mm whilst on a tripod and a shutter speed of 1/4 second ....... IBIS on, IBIS off, Lens OIS on, Lens OIS off, Mechanical shutter, Electronic Shutter, Electronic Front Curtain Shutter ..........

There is a very slight ..... (possibly even imaginary) ..... increase in sharpness when using the electronic shutter ..... but otherwise every image to me looks as sharp as I would expect. 

This again is with the lens mounted on the tripod, not the camera. 

Handheld, with IBIS on I can get sharp images at 1/10 sec at 280mm .... and again mechanical or electronic shutter seems to make no difference. 

This might be reassuring for Leica L mount lens users ...... but if anything makes explaining what is going on even more difficult ....

Edited April 10, 2019 by thighslapper

[ron777]

I have to agree,  that from every aspect,I really like the S1R.  But shutter shock is likely only part of the story.  

The shutter shock issue that Sony had encountered with A7r, although I'd never personally experienced it, had been described as having been widespread, and not specifically related to focal length, although logic would suggest that it would have been more prominent with longer lenses. I still have the camera somewhere in my storage room where it has sat, unused for years.  

As for the a7rIII and a9 not having similar issues, I assume that you are referring to adapted lenses?  I'd recently sold my a9, but still have an a7rIII, and while my imaging does not require long lenses, a few of my adapted M's do not play nicely with the camera.  The images that they produce, while acceptable, are not up to par when compared with the results obtained from the same M mounted on the SL.  I have yet to hang an M off of my S1R.  

So for me, the take away is that adapted lenses, regardless of whether they require an adapter or not, may not represent the epitome of perfection on a non native camera.

Edited April 10, 2019 by ron777

[grahamhoey]

Tried the High Res option on the S1R today for the first time, second 2 pictures are 100% crop

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ron777]

8 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Just to confuse things I've repeated all the above with the R 280/2.8 with and without 1.4 and 2x teleconverters. (ie 785mm)

Surprisingly images are sharp throughout most of the shutter range I tried (1/40 to 1/250) when on a tripod. No difference with IBIS on or off, even if set to the incorrect focal length (on a tripod). Changing to the electronic shutter makes a slight but noticeable increase in sharpness at the 1/40 sec end. It is nothing like as noticeable as in the images above. The only proviso is that this was at relatively close distance indoors, as outdoors today is again very windy. 

Handheld is another story ...... but if you can handhold this combination without wobbling wildly then you must be built like The Rock. 

The only significant difference is the 280 has a tripod mount close to the centre of gravity, and although it wobbles easily even on a rock solid tripod, possibly the frequency of oscillation set up by any shutter movement is much lower due to the inertia in the arrangement. Unlike the previous speculation, that does tend to suggest camera rather than sensor movement. 

I suspect the magnitude of issues will turn out to be lens dependent and how they are used ......

OK, that's confusing.  

Perhaps our heavy duty tripods are not as solid as we think.  Tiny oscillations, not be visible to the naked eye, may be in play, and mounting the lens, rather than the camera, to the tripod may have served as a mitigating factor by providing a better distribution of weight, or by reducing the torque factor.

Whatever the explanation, IMO, the camera is a keeper and has already relegated my SL to a shelf for possible future use as an M lens holder.

Edited April 10, 2019 by ron777