Images from Panasonic L-Mount cameras

[bags27]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

FWIW, and that's an honest question, Steve Huff seems to prefer the S1 + M lenses to the SL + M lenses (doesn't like the S1R: sweet spot for him is 24 mps. I can well understand that). Little question from the high iso test that the Panny does a lot better, but a lot of folks rarely need shoot that high of course. And over the past couple of years, he's proclaimed the SL his favorite camera....ever, again, FWIW. Personally, I'd have to really be convinced of the Panny's UI, but maybe that's just me. 

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/07/the-panasonic-s1-with-leica-m-lenses-canon-ef-as-well/

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2019/04/06/the-panasonic-s1-vs-leica-sl-high-iso-test/

Edited April 8, 2019 by bags27

[helged]

4 hours ago, thighslapper said:

A quick update on issues with using IBIS on non native mount lenses ......

it is EXTREMELY focal length sensitive ...... and if using any lenses where FL is not communicated to the camera it must be manually entered into the camera .... otherwise images will show movement, even at shutter speeds where you would expect to see none even without OIS. 

The S1R is around the corner - in the mean time - what to expect from S1R when shooting with long lenses; 400+mm....? The SL with electronic shutter works brilliantly on every long lens I have tested (although a larger buffer would be great), will the S1R be 'disastrously' soft? I dont get it/why... Firmware issue...? 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[thighslapper]

15 minutes ago, helged said:

The S1R is around the corner - in the mean time - what to expect from S1R when shooting with long lenses; 400+mm....? The SL with electronic shutter works brilliantly on every long lens I have tested (although a larger buffer would be great), will the S1R be 'disastrously' soft? I dont get it/why... Firmware issue...? 

....... basically it means if you use IBIS with a non L lens you must accurately set the focal length ...... or switch it off completely. The wrong focal length setting makes images blurry even if you use 1/f. I accidentally left it set on 280mm and then used the APO 50/2 ...... and couldn't get any sharp images at any shutter setting with IBIS on till I realised what I had done. 

With extenders I ASSUME you just use the multiplied focal length .... but I have my doubts it will be that simple ..... 

As Alan says above, with the electronic shutter, IBIS off and on a tripod things should be fine.  With any ROM R lenses that transmit the FL you should also be ok. (my 100/2.8 R works fine).

I'll have a play with my R 80-200 and 280/2.8 again tomorrow and test things a bit more thoroughly.

[AlanYWM]

Fyi, this is also the same with Sony a7RIII. If you do not set the correct focal length on the camera, it may cause slightly blurry images. Perhaps that is why some people are saying that the a7RIII is not good for M lenses.

As for the Panasonic S1R, only the electronic shutter will yield sharp images with or without the IBIS turned on. I cannot understand why with IBIS switched off and on a tripod, images are slightly soft compared to using electronic shutter. This only occurs when the focal length is more than 100mm. I would be quite surprised if the reason was due shutter vibration. It should not be the case if the shutter speed is high enough. I do not get this with my Sonys. And if anyone is asking, I also tested the S1R with a Canon super telephoto lens with the same results. Lens IS and AF were not available with this setup. This may change with the Sigma MC-21 adapter.

For now,  anything greater than 100mm, I would recommend electronic shutter.

[michali]

Interesting, I've had similar issues when using my Ziess 300mm f2.8 Tele Apo Tessar & Leica APO 280mm f4 with the Fuji X-T2 & X-Pro2.

I also recall having the same issues with the Sony A7r and these lenses. FWIW, for wildlife photography with long lenses I use a substantial bean bag (more stable than a tripod), and when possible try to keep shutter speeds above 1/800 .

 

 

Edited April 9, 2019 by michali

[helged]

Thanks @thighslapper, @AlanYWM, @michali & co - very valuable information for those unfamiliar with the ibis-land (both feather-wise and sensor-wise in my case, actually )... 

Edited April 9, 2019 by helged

[Chaemono]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

vor 3 Stunden schrieb AlanYWM:

As for the Panasonic S1R, only the electronic shutter will yield sharp images with or without the IBIS turned on. I cannot understand why with IBIS switched off and on a tripod, images are slightly soft compared to using electronic shutter. This only occurs when the focal length is more than 100mm. I would be quite surprised if the reason was due shutter vibration. It should not be the case if the shutter speed is high enough. I do not get this with my Sonys. And if anyone is asking, I also tested the S1R with a Canon super telephoto lens with the same results. Lens IS and AF were not available with this setup. This may change with the Sigma MC-21 adapter.

For now,  anything greater than 100mm, I would recommend electronic shutter.

Very useful information. Thanks for testing and sharing. It has to do with shutter vibration. There is no other explanation for this 'phenomenon' if electronic shutter yields sharp images. Do you notice anything funny about the shutter sound sometimes?

[AlanYWM]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Very useful information. Thanks for testing and sharing. It has to do with shutter vibration. There is no other explanation for this 'phenomenon' if electronic shutter yields sharp images. Do you notice anything funny about the shutter sound sometimes?

You could be right about the shutter vibration but I am still surprised by this outcome. From my personal experience, 180mm with a 1/50sec shutter speed on a tripod with timer should give a sharp image. We are talking about using a mirrorless system - not a DSLR with mirror slap. Perhaps in the case of the S1R, I need to up the shutter speed even more. I will try increasing the shutter speed to at least 1/focal length when I repeat the test tomorrow. Hopefully that will yield sharp images.

As for the shutter sound, there is a slight difference between mechanical and electronic shutter. Electronic is quieter, IMO. Frankly, both sound "electronic" to me 😄  

I will report back tomorrow after further tests.

[AlanYWM]

6 hours ago, michali said:

Interesting, I've had similar issues when using my Ziess 300mm f2.8 Tele Apo Tessar & Leica APO 280mm f4 with the Fuji X-T2 & X-Pro2.

I also recall having the same issues with the Sony A7r and these lenses. FWIW, for wildlife photography with long lenses I use a substantial bean bag (more stable than a tripod), and when possible try to keep shutter speeds above 1/800 .

 

 

There was a time when we needed very good support for long lenses. With the introduction of mirrorless system and excellent stabilizers on the lens as well as on the camera body, we are now able to shoot at much lower shutter speeds and can still get away with sharp images. I routinely shoot below 1/200sec at 840mm (600mm+1.4XTC) and still get sharp images. Naturally, a bean bag has its benefits but you will be surprised how low a shutter speed you can go with proper techniques 😊

[michali]

1 hour ago, AlanYWM said:

There was a time when we needed very good support for long lenses. With the introduction of mirrorless system and excellent stabilizers on the lens as well as on the camera body, we are now able to shoot at much lower shutter speeds and can still get away with sharp images. I routinely shoot below 1/200sec at 840mm (600mm+1.4XTC) and still get sharp images. Naturally, a bean bag has its benefits but you will be surprised how low a shutter speed you can go with proper techniques 😊

My point is that there appear to be issues with shutter vibrations on some mirrorless cameras, which I never encountered with DSLRs.

As an example, this image is shot hand held with my old Sony α 700 and Leica Apo Telyt 280mm f4 at 1/250 -

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

no stabilisation in either the lens or the camera.

[michali]

This image is also shot hand held with the Sony α 700 and Leica Apo Telyt 280mm f4 at 1/160

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[vikasmg]

I saw there were five replies so I looked in to see the images.  But you guys are still all talk 😉  

[LocalHero1953]

In mirrorless systems the mechanical shutter starts wide open (for LV) has to close, then open for exposure, then close, then open again for LV. That's plenty of preliminaries that, without adequate damping, can produce vibrations during exposure.

Edited April 9, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[helged]

29 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

In mirrorless systems the mechanical shutter starts wide open (for LV) has to close, then open for exposure, then close, then open again for LV. That's plenty of preliminaries that, without adequate damping, can produce vibrations during exposure.

Good point. I have yet to see this on the SL, although I may have overlooked it - or that the SL is highly dampes. 

[verwackelt]

Is there no Option in mirrorless FF cameras like a "first curtain" done with electronic shutter and secound curtain finally the machanical shutter?
I never noticed this problems at my m4/3 GH5 and G9…

[AlanYWM]

1 hour ago, michali said:

My point is that there appear to be issues with shutter vibrations on some mirrorless cameras, which I never encountered with DSLRs.

As an example, this image is shot hand held with my old Sony α 700 and Leica Apo Telyt 280mm f4 at 1/250 -

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

no stabilisation in either the lens or the camera.

Yes. It looks like the Panasonic S1R is prone to some sort of shutter vibrations when using mechanical shutter. This is not the case with the Sony a9 camera. I have already done quite a bit of testing and found that on the S1R, image sharpness starts to get better above 1/50sec with a 400mm @ f4 on a tripod. The sharpness more or less will peak at 1/100sec and above. Beyond 1/100sec, sharpness is about on par with electronic shutter. This is quite a big difference from the Sony a9 where on the same setup, I can get sharp images even at 1/15sec.

I am not sure why the S1R is behaving like this. You can get sharp images on adapted lenses up to about 100mm at very low shutter speeds (1sec) but above that focal length, things become worse off. If the cause is because of shutter vibration, then it should be consistent across all focal lengths. I hope it is not unique to my camera 😄

Anyway, my findings have already been reported to the local Panasonic office and my understanding is that this information will be given to Panasonic Japan for their consideration. I am keeping my fingers crossed that Panasonic will come up with a remedy.

[LocalHero1953]

35 minutes ago, verwackelt said:

Is there no Option in mirrorless FF cameras like a "first curtain" done with electronic shutter and secound curtain finally the machanical shutter?
I never noticed this problems at my m4/3 GH5 and G9…

Yes, there often is this option, but is usually not the default, but must be selected. It's a sort of half way house to the full electronic shutter.

The first Sony A7 was notorious for its shutter vibration.

Edited April 9, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[Nordvik]

Yes, The Sony A7R was famous for its shutter shock. The 36MP of that model was worthless. They apparently fixed it with the A7Rii.

[mdemeyer]

As mentioned, this was extensively looked into with the Sony A7r and other cameras. It turns out that the conventional wisdom of “shorter shutter speed is better” doesn’t always apply here.  There tends to be a shutter speed range below and above which the problem is minimized.  Above because the exposure is very short.  Below the range because the period during which the camera vibrates is a smaller part of the total exposure.  

You can find lots of solid research on this topic on Jim Kasson’s site by searching for the words “shutter shock”.   Here is a link to tests showing that longer exposures can actually reduce the problem, again, going against conventional wisdom.

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7r-shutter-shock-at-long-exposures/

He also has tests of the new Nikon Mirrorless models and various SLRs.  If you want to really understand this issue, take the time to study his work  

Not a new problem to the Panasonic and electronic first curtain is generally the best solution without causing the other problems with slower read rates of fully electronic shutters. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by mdemeyer

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Deslandesphoto]

10 hours ago, michali said:

This image is also shot hand held with the Sony α 700 and Leica Apo Telyt 280mm f4 at 1/160

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Love this shot!