M10 Monochrom vs M10 — and, generally, color camera vs B&W

[Guest Nowhereman]

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 @Stevejack For what type of photography do you want good ISO 12,500 output — or is it to be able to use high shutter speed? 

[a.noctilux]

Out of topic ...

on high ISO only 😉.

When I newly had some years ago first version Monochrom ( always satisfied with this MM1) , I was glad to be "able" to use 10k ISO .

With some years later, maybe my "kind of pictures" when I viewed those high ISO pictures, I don't use at that "speed" anymore.

1600 ISO is plenty satisfying, not that the higher ISOs are "not usable technically", but I don't need higher ISOs than 1600.

In film days, I was happy to be able to use T-MAX 3200 at that speed, but only for the "grain of film" which in MM1 files not "quite same graininess", so ...

 

I think that those MM1 lovely files must not be compared to films or other "too clean files" (for me "grain lover" when needed) from the Leica Monochrom of later editions.

Anyway, we are all different, so let's live happy and use what make the "best" out of limitations : lack of high ISO, lack of color, etc.

Edited February 10, 2020 by a.noctilux

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[Herr Barnack]

On 1/25/2020 at 2:52 AM, Kendoo said:

Nice M10 camera images here on the Monochrom page.   

To add insult to injury, we now have COLOR images on the M10 Monochrom page.

To borrow a line from Doc Holliday in the movie Tombstone, "Such ugliness.  I abhor ugliness..."

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

13 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

To add insult to injury, we now have COLOR images on the M10 Monochrom page...

This is not an "M10 Monochrom page". The title of the thread is: M10 Monochrom vs M10 — and, generally, color camera vs B&W. The thread police can give it a rest. though I realize that you're joking.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[burningheart]

Mitch

As I read through the thread I can see several concerns raised. What I am perceiving (not in any particular order)

1. The ability to shoot images in color and convert it to a satisfactory B&W with your conversion methods

2. Increased resolution impact on processing an M10R (40+ MP)

3. Processing concerns with M10M files and not being discussed at greater length

4.  Doing a book in B&W only vs combined B&W and color

You have a process that works for you now with the M10 but ponder on the workflow with an M10R which is only rumoured. It is hard to say how the files will react to your conversion process until the camera comes to market and files are available to process. 

I think for M10M processing not being discussed at greater length is all of the M10M shooters are still learning how to work with the files and the fact that we are awaiting Capture One and LR support. The files are definitely different than past Monochrom files but there is a lot of learning to be had and that learning may change once Capture One and LR support is in place. Beyond basic processing I think that it is a wait and see situation.

When you mentioned that day in Japan with the rain you loved the saturated colors and gave some thought to the book being both or separate books. You have state the desire for black and white but the color shots that day you enjoyed shooting and reviewing suggests to me you are still working on your book plan that you have left the door open a little to the possibility of color.

I look at your situation and I see similarities (different in scope but still same process of thinking and concerns) for my journey to Monochrom. Never was much of a B&W shooter in film days. The only B&W I did in digital was infra red.

Like yourself with the color shooting in Japan you mentioned I was travelling through historical towns in Canada. I was envisioning and seeing history more in Black and White. Trying to envision a color shot converted to Black and White didn't work for me as this is something I do not do or like doing. I could use my Infra red camera but historical scenes with white vegetation although it may look nice didn't fit in my vision. I continued to ponder that for the next year. To be brutally honest I wasn't sure if I had enough interest in B&W that I should continue to pursue. The MM1 had been released and I looked at the price and responded just like any nonLeica users "Not A Chance". One day I took a chance and bought the Monochrom. I have never looked back. I'm not a street shooter I like history, landscape and urban landscape so I do not use my Monochroms as most typically do but I do not regret it. 

Later I added an M246 because it has video. I was unsure of a rumoured M10 Monochrom(although I said I wanted). I wasn't a fan of the ISO button continued 24MP, and the removal of video. When they announced the M10M the jump to 40MP, 16 minute exposures, and ISO 25,000 sold me on it. 

In your case you are still dealing with unknowns. You can work with M10M files that others shoot but until they are officially supported it just leaves further questions for all us until we have official support. An M10R may be your answer but it doesn't exist at this time.

The only things you work through at this time are book format (B&W, color or a combination, or 2 books), continue to experiment with M10M files, await official support, and once the M10R is out experiment with those files. There is nothing stopping from you continuing to shoot M10 pictures for your next book and maybe you will upgrade to an M10R or M10M or whatever.

Just some thoughts from my perspective of view.

Now back to my own ponderings: Upgrade my Canon 5Dsr to the rumoured Canon R5, wait for the 70MP Canon, add an M240, add a rumoured M10R, buy that 35lux, wait for the rumoured 35lux APO,..... it never ends. 

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

@burningheart - Thanks for taking the time to lay this out so fully. Really quite useful. For the book project, I'll be proceeding with the converting M10, and also some Ricoh GR III, images to B&W. A book with color as well as B&W images is difficult for conceptual reasons, meaning that there has to basic and profound reasons for doing that, beyond just having some color images that one likes. Though I'll be keeping an eye on what emerges on the M10M — as well as your experience with it. (BTW, @ShiroKuro has learned that the base ISO is 400 and not 160.)

Some images, that is to say, ones on which one's motivation was overwhelmingly color, work poorly in B&W, like the first one in post #15 above. However, experimenting with conversion of that type of image into B&W, I found that it's likely to work better when the conversion is a high contrast one. This is what I found in the first one below, which I've posted in color elsewhere. I liked the "clean" and "clear" colors in it and thought it would never work in B&W. Yet, finally, when I tried "expressionist B&W", I found that I like it. 

M10 | DR Summicron 50 | ISO 800 | f/2.8 | 1/125 sec

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Tokyo – Empire of Signs

Then I tried it on a image, shot of the same building in Tokyo as the image in post #15, which I thought would never work in color. After adding a strong vignette, which makes look like a "day-for-night" shot, I got the result below. (Neither of these shots may end up in the book, but the one below supports the Empire of Signs title.)
Note: The image below can be viewed in Lightbox, by clicking on it.

M10 | DR Summicron 50 | ISO 800 | f/2.8 | 1/180 sec

Edited February 11, 2020 by Nowhereman

[Stevejack]

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17 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

 @Stevejack For what type of photography do you want good ISO 12,500 output — or is it to be able to use high shutter speed? 

Yes, high shutter speed. I hate having to come down to 1/60 or 1/30 when I really want to be at 1/250. On my Leicas I rarely go above ISO3200. Having a body that produces low noise at ISO12,500 and acceptable noise at ISO25,000 would be a huge plus.

[PeterMM1]

Responding to the Author's Original Thread....color VS black & white camera?....I don't know what level of users are on this forum but for myself I am not a professional and it is just a serious hobby for me. I've been taking photos since the 60's with my old Konica S2 and Kodak Kodachrome II transparencies....I later built my own darkroom where I shot with a Nikon F2 and Tri-x almost exclusively. Bulk loading canisters, processing, printing and mounting my own prints. I remember spending literally all day in the darkroom because I didn't want to waste chemicals mixed that day. I can still imagine that wonderful aroma of D-76 & Fixer permeating through the basement..... 

I own a MM1 which is now finally showing signs of the dreaded "corrosion" issue with th M9 sensors. I considered purchasing a M10M and although I can afford one, I just can't justify purchasing one for my needs. 
I have an old M8 CCD that I absolutely love. At only 10 megapixel the files IMO that I can convert to black & white rival if not equal those on my MM1 CCD. I hope to eventually find a service that can repair my MM1 sensor but it is still very usable.

Fast forward....I ultimately decided to purchase an excellent example of a used M10 and I'm very happy with that decision. If I were earning a living with my camera, the decision to get an M10M would be a no brainer but the visible difference that I would see between a converted B&W M10 file and the M10M would be almost not noticeable if any at all.

There is a skill level to using PP that people seem to forget. It is not just the type of camera but decisions you make about the final PP choice that make a world of difference.
The PP that can be achieved in Lightroom or Photoshop would literally have taken hours in the darkroom years ago....not it takes a few minutes and you can tweak the hell out of a file.
When I look through Flikr photos and see over-processed files, over sharpened, overcontrasted...etc...It hurts my eyes to look at these images coming from very expensive cameras that a lot of people don't appreciate the full potential of. The secret is Processing or sometimes not over processing...
Examples M8 converted to B&W below....

 

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[Guest]

On 2/10/2020 at 7:33 AM, Nowhereman said:

A postscript on Paulo Nozolino: 
As I said, it's difficult to get a sense of Nozolino on the web. I respect that he has no web presence at all: no FaceBook, no Instagram, no website. He shoots only film: Tri-X, with an M6 and one lens. There is an hour-long discussion video between him and Spanish photographer Alberto García-Alix. It was at the Madrid photo festival two or three years ago. Garcia-Alix speaks in Spanish (English subtitles) and Nozolino, who is Portuguese, in English. In the video, Nozolino said he shoots very little, only 20 rolls a year. I thought that was an exaggeration, for effect; but in an interview I read subsequently, he said he sometimes has a roll of Tri-X in his camera for as long as three months. Gotta love a photographer who doesn't shoot 9 fps! Nozolino does a workshop in Arles in April, most every year, I think. Here is the blurb for the workshop:

I believe the original of this blurb is in French, which doesn't have quite have such a film chauvinist tone. I would translate the French text of first paragraph as follows: "Landscape photographers, reportage photographers, portraitists and conceptual artists will stay away. Careerists and photoshop addicts will also give it a pass, as this workshop is not for them".

You can find an interview with Nozolino in English, but there are better ones in Portuguese. His vision is dark, dealing with death, decay and entropy of civilization, but I'm stating this glibly. One is often influenced by great photography, but I have not yet managed to do anything approaching his style in a meaningful way. But working with that in formulating a point of departure interests me.

However, there is one thing in which Nozolino has already effected me. You will have noticed that all of Loaded Shine is in vertical shots. Before I started going digital, initially by scanning film, at least ⅓rd to 2/5 ths of my shots were in vertical format: simply because processing horizontal photos produces a much larger image on the screen. After I started looking at Nozolino, I started shooting more vertical shots.
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Frog Leaping photobook

I was enrolled in Nozolino's Workshop at Arles last year, 2020, but then like everything else throughout the world it was cancelled due to the Covid-19 pandemic........However I kept my reservation and deposit in place in case it would be reinstated at anytime, and now it has been for this coming May 17-21........I hope this second attempt at the workshop will take place this year.

https://www.rencontres-arles.com/en/stages-printemps-2021/

[Guest Nowhereman]

@petermullett - Hope you'll post about your experience in the Nozolino workshop. And being in Arles for a week should be great fun. I just hope that vaccinations and the current confinement in France will hold the pandemic at bay so that it will be safe for the workshop in May. I'm not trying to sound a note of pessimism, but just learned last night that my granddaughter in Denver, her mother and her boyfriend all tested positive: how's that for "shades of Christmas past"?
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Frog Leaping photobook

[Guest Nowhereman]

On 1/22/2021 at 7:40 PM, PeterMM1 said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Love the bold treatment of the highlights here, as well ad the blacks and the shadow details. All this has a great feeling about the light in the image.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[Guest]

15 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

@petermullett - Hope you'll post about your experience in the Nozolino workshop. And being in Arles for a week should be great fun. I just hope that vaccinations and the current confinement in France will hold the pandemic at bay so that it will be safe for the workshop in May. I'm not trying to sound a note of pessimism, but just learned last night that my granddaughter in Denver, her mother and her boyfriend all tested positive: how's that for "shades of Christmas past"?
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Frog Leaping photobook

I am afraid that the way things are going here in Europe and the world in general in regards to the Covid-19 situation that it's 50/50 as to whether this year's schedule of workshops at Arles will be able to go ahead. I hope they will, but we'll see in a couple of months I guess.

[Guest Nowhereman]

@petermullett - Yes, I'm afraid so. On my original annual schedule, I should have left the US last September, spent a month in Paris and gone on to Thailand and now, around mid-February, should be leaving Thailand for another month in Paris. Of course I'm stuck in the States and have no idea when I can get either to Paris or Bangkok. Such is life these days.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

@petermullett - Yes, I'm afraid so. On my original annual schedule, I should have left the US last September, spent a month in Paris and gone on to Thailand and now, around mid-February, should be leaving Thailand for another month in Paris. Of course I'm stuck in the States and have no idea when I can get either to Paris or Bangkok. Such is life these days.
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Frog Leaping photobook

I was back in the US late last March for a 6 week stay for work in NYC and Seattle and visiting my son in VA, but after just four days there I could see what was coming down the pike.......I cancelled everything, badgered British Airways at BWI for hours to get them to change my ticketing, ( politeness and patience even though I really wanted to throttle one obnoxious counter person ), and left for London that night with onward link to Toulouse the next day. As it turned out that was BA's last flight out for nearly four months and hours after landing at Toulouse France slammed the door shut. I was very lucky to be able to have got home otherwise I too would have been stranded there for too long a time.

[Cayenne]

9 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

@petermullett - Yes, I'm afraid so. On my original annual schedule, I should have left the US last September, spent a month in Paris and gone on to Thailand and now, around mid-February, should be leaving Thailand for another month in Paris. Of course I'm stuck in the States and have no idea when I can get either to Paris or Bangkok. Such is life these days.
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Frog Leaping photobook

I might suggest renting a M10M, and shooting shots with it side by side with your color camera, and compare the experiences shooting and in post...?

 

I’d be quite interested to hear your thoughts after that, and seeing image comparisons between the same shot brim both cameras...

 

cayenne

[Guest Nowhereman]

15 hours ago, Cayenne said:

I might suggest renting a M10M, and shooting shots with it side by side with your color camera, and compare the experiences shooting and in post...?

I’d be quite interested to hear your thoughts after that, and seeing image comparisons between the same shot brim both cameras...

This thread dates back to one year ago, when I was musing about the M10-M and the, then, expected M10-R. Since then, there's no dilemma for me: I subsequently decided to keep the M10. Basically, I still feel that 24 MP is the "sweet spot", especially for my high contrast photography, because I doubt that the 40 MP of the two new Leica cameras will give me anything but increased cost and possible problems with camera shake. With regard to the latter, have you seen some of the posts by @Steven, who found that shooting with the M10-R he had camera shake at shutter speeds below 1/250 sec. Some LUF posters claim that they can handhold the M10–R at 1/60 and even 1/30 sec. However, as I often go for "immediacy", I doubt that I would be able do that on a consistent basis with the M10-R or the M10-M without IBIS, even if it could work for me for some images. In this respect, I'm encouraged to see that Leica has introduced the S2-S with a 24 MP sensor, which I hopes indicates that there could be a 24 MP. 

But all this goes back much further for me. On the old CompuServe photo forum, as well as on the old Leica forum on photo.net, people used to say that if you wanted to print larger than 11×14 inches you should go to medium format. But I have always liked the "35mm aesthetic". Around 2005, I saw a Moriyama Daido retrospective at the Gallery of New South Wales, which showed 60 large prints (60 by 40 inches) shot with Tri-X and printed with an Epson wide format printer. The prints were dazzling, and didn't need medium format film. A few years ago, Moriyama had another exhibition at the Cartier Foundation in Paris: this was all digital work that he shot with a camera that had a tiny sensor, the Nikon Coolpix 6500, I believe. Indeed, I made a print from the Ricoh GRD at 58 x 45 inches print that I like a lot. And, of course, I have 60 by 40 inch prints made from the M10 without any problem. But that is the, usually, high-contrast, expressionist, and "rougher" look that I like. Of course, I understand that other photographers will prefer a 40 MP camera.

The other issue you referred to is that of a color camera versus an M-Monochrom. When I had the M-Monichrom, I also had a M9-P. Essentially, I shot then alternately in "binges" of month, or so, each. When I reviewed my B&W images from these two cameras, I found ones I liked from both; but I concluded that I preferred the flexibility of using "digital filters" in Lightroom or Silver Efex with the camera to shooting with the Monochrom and sometimes using glass filters. And of course, all the Leica Monochroms are great cameras and I understand who people like them.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[Erato]

I always admired a photographer who is with passion. So I'd like to share my 5 cents with you. Please feel free to point out where went wrong if you found it below.

A high contrast/sharpness outcome(fitting your ideal patterns) through the hardware/software is possible if you've in-depth research for the available art tools and know exactly how to manage them precisely. 

For instance, one of the post-process software already supports M10M --  Capture One 20/21. An "ICC Profile" enhancement option under the "Base Characteristics" allows you to alter the ICC Profile curve. And you could manage to change the "Levels" and "Curve" for more accurate control and save it as your User Styles or Presets. If you're looking for further control options such as "Sharpening" or "Film Grain" etc...
You may find them in the different control panels as well.

I used to be a PhotoShop forum moderator for years long ago, and I am happy with Capture One 20 result without PhotoShop, Nik Silver Efex, Affinity, Aperture, Lightroom, or else.

The only thing that the software can't help you may be a high-quality image as an ideal playground, either digitalized via analog or native 010101100. M10M shall give you more room for further process, FMHO.

As a side note, I am relatively satisfied with the overall outcome on M10M while comparing it with M10-P or M10-R.

I'd be more than happy to see your creative artworks go public.

Cheers,
Raymond

[Mr.Prime]

I still find that digital b&w can not give the same feel as film despite advanced software. It’s subtle, unreliable but the feeling is there in some cases. Hard to explain, a bit like the sound difference between two amplifiers, it shouldn’t be there but it is, it’s not obvious or easy to describe except to say that one makes me feel comfortable and the other does not. One day I may turn my hand atvwriting some software to make myself comfortable moving to all-digital. I think there’s an insignificant difference for me between mono sensor and b&w from colour sensor except where the sliders have been abused 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Mr.Prime

[Erato]

1 minute ago, Mr.Prime said:

I still find that digital b&w can not give the same feel as film despite advanced software. It’s subtle, unreliable but the feeling is there in some cases. Hard to explain, a bit like the sound difference between two amplifiers, it shouldn’t be there but it is, it’s not obvious or easy to describe except to say that one makes me feel comfortable and the other does not. One day I may turn my hand atvwriting some software to make myself comfortable moving to all-digital.

Apple to orange? As an old school fans of analog, I love them both. The only thing that matter is how you use them for your documentary or art works. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Guest Nowhereman]

8 hours ago, Erato said:

I always admired a photographer who is with passion...A high contrast/sharpness outcome(fitting your ideal patterns) through the hardware/software is possible if you've in-depth research for the available art tools and know exactly how to manage them precisely. 

For instance, one of the post-process software already supports M10M --  Capture One 20/21. An "ICC Profile" enhancement option under the "Base Characteristics" allows you to alter the ICC Profile curve. And you could manage to change the "Levels" and "Curve" for more accurate control and save it as your User Styles or Presets. If you're looking for further control options such as "Sharpening" or "Film Grain" etc...

...I'd be more than happy to see your creative artworks go public

Raymond - Thanks for the kind words, and I especially like the reference to the magic word "passion".😀   Incidentally, I have gone public by self-publishing my book, Frog Leaping, whose website you can see at the link below. If you have a chance to look at the site, make sure to click on the Flip-through video page, so you can see the book's foldout structure.

I have no doubt that I could get the high-contrast look that I want from the M10M, whether I used Lightroom or Capture One. However, I would be "roughing up" the M10-M files even more than I now do with the M10 — and in this situation, am not inclined to go into the added expense of selling my M10 and buying a new M10-M. Also, I would have to deal with larger files, which would make Lightroom more sluggish than it sometimes is with my M10 files.
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Frog Leaping photobook

Edited January 27, 2021 by Nowhereman