Offered a near mint DMR - do I or don't I?

[wlaidlaw]

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I have been offered a near mint DMR from a trade seller that I completely trust and have dealt with over many years, in the UK. It has a good tested battery and for a bit extra I can buy a second battery. I now have a reasonable range of R lenses, a 24/2.8, 35/2.8, 50/2, 28-70,  80-200/4 and 80/2.8 Tilt/Shift. The price seems correct given its condition, although there is another one on sale from a Leica trade seller in Europe at slightly less. I am very much in two minds about getting a DMR. On one hand I feel it is very significant in Leica's history and as such would fit well in my collect of 29 assorted Leica cameras. I insist that all my cameras be in good working condition other than my UR replica (lost cause) and two currently away for service/repair plus my Leicina Special where the repairer is trying to track down a new or alternative motor. 

I am just not sure I would ever use the DMR. I use my R9 quite a lot for film and maybe that is its forte not as a weird hybrid. How good/bad is the DMR in practice? I still use my M8 for digital infra-red. Would I just be doubling up on the M8 with the DMR, although the ability to use zooms and a wider range of creative filters would be nice. I also have the very much smaller digital CL, also with an APS sized sensor but 2½ times as many pixels as the DMR. 

What do folks think? 

Wilson

Edited January 22, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[John McMaster]

What is the going price these days?  I have one and occasionally use it, but not that much however it does give very nice results in use...

john

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[masjah]

Several questions here Wilson. First of all, if you enjoy using your R9 for film, and propose to continue so to do, then factor in the cost of a second R9 body on which to mount a DMR. I don't think repeated swapping in use would be a good idea, and personally I wouldn't care for the inconvenience.

Secondly, if the DMR goes wrong, then it's a paperweight. Dealers I suspect would only sell on an as is basis - though you should be able to drive a good bargain as a result. I know of a UK dealer who has one in his collection, but can't list it for sale because it can't be serviced. PM me if you would like the name - they may be willing also to sell as is.

Thirdly, and very obviously, it's high ISO performance is very limited by today's standards, and it's resolution at 10Mp is also very limited.

Fourthly, battery cell replacement needs at least to be considered in the medium to longer term, though replacement is possible (paulmac has details of someone in the UK who can do motor drives, and I'd bet he could do DMR cell replacement).

At present, I am enjoying getting back to film with my R9, and use my M240 with R-M adapter and EVF2. It's a good solution for static subjects and tripod work.

 

 

[spydrxx]

I longed for one years ago, which inspired me to buy an M8. Although it represents a historical milestone in Leica lore, it seems to me there are just better options to using your R glass. I opted to not get one and instead convert a Sigma digital body to an R mount, and the colors on a Foveon sensor really wowed me. Having offered my opinion, since you do collect gear, if the one offered you is in good shape and the price is right, why not give it a shot...you only live once!

[wlaidlaw]

Thanks John - exceedingly helpful. The only positive note is that the DMR seems to be fairly reliable other than the battery and I can either replace the cells myself or get them done by Michael Bass. The going rate for a good working DMR is around the £2,000 mark.Everyone I know who bought and has kept their DMR still has a working one. 

I reluctantly sold my Leica S1 some years ago because I could no longer get the SCSI interface to work consistently and my SCSI Artix 6000 film scanner had gone on fire due to SCSI interface errors. I came to the conclusion that a non-working, interesting looking but expensive pile of electronics was not appropriate to be part of the sort of Leica collection I have or wanted to have. I sold it to a Japanese collector along with my Telyt 800mm for quite a lot of money, which I needed, as my 1977  Porsche 911 RSR restoration had gone way over budget (as usual). It is a concern to me that the DMR could go the same way. 

Wilson

Edited January 22, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[gbealnz]

Tricky question Wilson, and ultimately one only you can solve.

I longed for one, ages ago, and was offered one which I grabbed. I used it for a while but found the combination of R8 and DMR unwieldy, and heavy. I too worried about the longevity of the unit, and eventually sold it, but certainly regretted selling. It is a piece of Leica history (like the M8) I can see this reason for you alone to make the decision easier, but harder.

As spydrxx quite correctly stated though, "you only live once". I say grab it.

Gary

[andybarton]

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I sold a mint one about 10 years ago for about two grand, so if they’re that price now, that’s interesting.

Absolutely beautiful files and a joy to use. Obviously dead easy to clean the sensor. 

The DMR unit sits beautifully on an R8/9 and the hand grip is brilliant.

Just do it 😊

[topoxforddoc]

Wilson,

I love my two DMRs. I've had 3 over the years, but one got stolen. I still use them from time to time, as they were my go-to concert cameras for many years. I still trot one out with my 180/2 Summicron. I never put film back into my R9s after buying the DMRs. Occasionally they will freeze - just open the whole thing up, clean the gold contact pins on all the bits, and put it back together again. The optical VF is a joy. As it's very topical today, here's a link my DMR photo of that lovely man, Terry Jones, who went the way of the Norwegian Blue earlier today RIP

 

Edited January 22, 2020 by topoxforddoc

[wlaidlaw]

One thing that surprises me is that, given the DMR was in the era when Leica was still cuddling up to Phase One, there is no DMR profile in Capture One. M8 yes; DMR no. do folks use LR to deal with the RAW files, which I assume are DNG - or are they?  

Wilson

PS Correction - I see there are profiles in C1 for the R8 and R9, which I assume must be for the DMR as there is no other way to get a RAW/DNG file from an R camera. I have checked in my DMR manual and I see that the RAW are indeed DNG. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[dkCambridgeshire]

I bought my s/h R9/DMR 10 years ago from a well known UK dealer c/w 2 batteries, & original boxes / manuals etc for £2K … i.e. the R9 body and the DMR back. Unlikely I'd ever part with it - partly because it would be so difficult to sell … but also because it's an excellent camera within its ISO limitations … and it fits my hand like a glove. One battery was re-celled by Michael Bass and he also made me a Quantum battery adapter … the DMR can therefore be plugged into a Quantum 1 battery which has its own shoulder strap and can simultaneously power a flash unit. My R9/DMR is not used often nowadays - I should use it more frequently - the 1.37x crop is useful when a little more reach is required. I enjoy using my DMR with the Leica R 19mm Mk II … 26mm FF equivalent. The DMR sensor is renowned for its 'film-like' imaging . Nowadays £2K seems a little on the high side for a s/h example … they tend to stick on dealers' s/h shelves for many months. Personally I've not found the limited usable ISO range i.e. 100 & 200 a problem … the camera's weight/ergonomics are such that handholding at longish shutter speeds does not result in shake / blurred images.  Michael Bass can make DMR compatible adapter leads for all types of Quantum batteries. R9-R8 / DMR combinations can be good conversation starters because of its uniqueness and scarcity; people are amazed that Leica (with Kodak's and Imacon's inputs) designed an add-on digital back for the R8 and R9. I often wonder if the R8 / R9 body was designed with a DMR in mind … or if the DMR back was an afterthought when the cameras were already in production? The DMR has limited SD card compatibility i.e. 2GB max which enables maybe 90 images … but that's adequate for most applications. I use Fujifilm 2GB SD cards which were still available new a few years ago. 

TLF DMR image thread:  

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260701-leica-dmr-image-thread/

dunk 

Edited January 22, 2020 by dkCambridgeshire

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, masjah said:

Several questions here Wilson. First of all, if you enjoy using your R9 for film, and propose to continue so to do, then factor in the cost of a second R9 body on which to mount a DMR. I don't think repeated swapping in use would be a good idea, and personally I wouldn't care for the inconvenience.

Secondly, if the DMR goes wrong, then it's a paperweight. Dealers I suspect would only sell on an as is basis - though you should be able to drive a good bargain as a result. I know of a UK dealer who has one in his collection, but can't list it for sale because it can't be serviced. PM me if you would like the name - they may be willing also to sell as is.

Thirdly, and very obviously, it's high ISO performance is very limited by today's standards, and it's resolution at 10Mp is also very limited.

Fourthly, battery cell replacement needs at least to be considered in the medium to longer term, though replacement is possible (paulmac has details of someone in the UK who can do motor drives, and I'd bet he could do DMR cell replacement).

At present, I am enjoying getting back to film with my R9, and use my M240 with R-M adapter and EVF2. It's a good solution for static subjects and tripod work.

 

 

Yes, I have one that I hesitate to sell too - it even comes with five batteries (two refurbished), but I'd better keep it instead of selling it and having it break down irreparably just after sale. So it is a memento on my desk. In fact, it is the very last one refurbished by Leica, they used the last parts they had on it. About the image quality - despite the low MP and poor noise performance, the out put is still fantastic. I made a few of my technically best photographs with  it.

[LeicaR10]

Wlaidlaw,  I owned the R9 and DMR for about 5 years.  I eventually sold it when other digital Leica cameras evolved and my business client base grew.  The photographs the DMR helped me create still sell to this day.  The files, color and rendering are superb with the DMR and R lenses. You can look at photographs taken in the R Forum and many are excellent.  Like many R9 w/DMR photographers, we were hoping for the Leica R10 with an improved digital sensor.  At times, I regret not keeping my R9 and DMR because I found when coupled with the R lenses the system was simply superb.  If you want a bit of Leica R history and a unique capability with the DMR (only 3,000 were made) then you might consider buying it and using it...the photographic rendering of the DMR and R lenses remains stellar.  r/ Mark

[M9reno]

I feel much like Wilson and would like to buy a DMR myself, but... in my own personal view the prices quoted are not realistic ones given the risks (enumerated by John above) that the buyer must assume.  Yes, the DMR is wonderful for what it is, which means I would buy at £800, or think about it at £1,200, ... but at £1,800 to £2,100 for a possible soon-to-be brick?  That Andy sold his - 10 years ago - for around that price says a lot.

Just for scale, I recently paid £2,800 for a mint MM1, another cult Leica, but made in 2012 instead of 2005, and still fully supported in terms of parts, batteries, cards, etc.

The fact that these DMR’s are languishing on shelves, or maybe even on Jaap’s desk (😊) suggests a problem with potential buyers and sellers not reaching agreement on the *right price*.

My own subjective opinion. 

[wlaidlaw]

Given that I put in a substantial order to Analogue Wonderland a few days ago for Ektar 100 and Ektachrome 100 for my trip to South Africa in two weeks time, I do wonder if I am potty even considering a 14 year old piece of consumer electronics. I had huge problems 9 months ago getting a mechanical part for my M7 (the intermediate gear spindle/shaft), so the tiniest problem with the DMR is going to result in, as folks describe, a brick. Logic says: "run a mile" but is my collection complete without one? I think I will leave my enthusiasm for the DMR  to simmer for a few days and see if it wanes or waxes. I might be better spending my budget on a 21-35 Vario-Elmar-R lens for my R4 and R9. I suspect it would get more use than an DMR. 

Wilson

PS. The seller has reduced the price by £200. Oddly that makes me less inclined to buy it rather than more. He's probably reading this thread 😀

Edited January 23, 2020 by wlaidlaw

[M9reno]

15 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Given that I put in a substantial order to Analogue Wonderland a few days ago for Ektar 100 and Ektachrome 100 for my trip to South Africa in two weeks time, I do wonder if I am potty even considering a 14 year old piece of consumer electronics. I had huge problems 9 months ago getting a mechanical part for my M7 (the intermediate gear spindle/shaft), so the tiniest problem with the DMR is going to result in, as folks describe, a brick. Logic says: "run a mile" but is my collection complete without one? I think I will leave my enthusiasm for the DMR  to simmer for a few days and see if it wanes or waxes. I might be better spending my budget on a 21-35 Vario-Elmar-R lens for my R4 and R9. I suspect it would get more use than an DMR. 

Wilson

I think that’s wise, and you should reflect that you’ll probably get one in the end (as will I), but at a fraction of the currently listed prices (In the two places you mention).  There will be potential sellers out there that are bound to see reason, and to want to sell accordingly.

[earleygallery]

I bought a very old digital camera just the other day I spotted in a shop window, a slim style Fuji type my Mother had (bought for her as an Xmas present to replace an Olympus film compact). I remember it had a useful 'auction' photo function and thought I'd buy it just for that purpose. 

It fired up but the battery was on the last bar and they had lost the charger for it. I still decided to take a punt on it, huge risk at £6 ! 

Would I pay £2000 for a DMR? Absolutely not! Imagine if it did break down a week later - if you're the gambling sort and happy to lose £2K do it.

[M9reno]

On top of everything else the DMR copy that (I assume) Wilson is referring to is unboxed. Whether you want to re-sell with minimal loss before it “bricks,,” or want to keep it as a non functioning but important collectible once it does, then papers, box, CD, instructions, etc. are at least worth something, at least to me.

[masjah]

Actually, although people have commented that the going rate for a DMR is £2k, I don't think Wilson has actually said what his two dealers are asking for theirs (apart from the fact that one of them has dropped £200).

In any case though, with regard to any gamble, such as putting your money on a horse, you've got a chance of winning back more than you've spent. The comparison with buying a DMR would be that you buy it at a price substantially less than a guaranteed working one, and you win if you are lucky and it carries on working. But if your stake is the fair price for a guaranteed working one (which Andy's post could be taken to imply) but without any such guarantee, well .....   . Having thought about it a bit more, purely personally, I'd walk away if it cost more than five hundred quid.

 

[Bobitybob]

Another consideration is that if it doesn’t come with a camera you will need to find a dedicated focusing screen (if you don’t have the box and/or the canvas carry case and associated parts) with the appropriate frame lines as the normal one is made for use with 35mm film and is too ’large’ for the APSC sensor.

 

Edited January 23, 2020 by Bobitybob

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[wlaidlaw]

27 minutes ago, M9reno said:

On top of everything else the DMR copy that (I assume) Wilson is referring to is unboxed. Whether you want to re-sell with minimal loss before it “bricks,,” or want to keep it as a non functioning but important collectible once it does, then papers, box, CD, instructions, etc. are at least worth something, at least to me.

I also have the same dilemma if I go for a DMR. Unboxed from a seller I trust and know I can return the DMR if it is DOA. This is against a slightly cheaper boxed and papers DMR but from an Italian seller I don't know. He will accept returns but it would all be a bit of a heave getting the item back to Italy. 

Wilson