Capture One Colours with M10P

[AMcB]

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Hi all,

I wanted to raise some concerns about the colour rendering of my M10P's DNG files by Capture One. 

I am currently using Capture One 12. About to upgrade to 20. 

I have seen some comments on here already that the M10 ICC profile is way oversaturated. I have been using the DNG File Neutral setting instead. 

Something that has been bugging me is that when looking at photos shot in shadow, Capture One has removed almost all of the colour from the dark areas of the picture. It's pretty much like looking at a black and white photograph. I have found that this is a particularly an issue with any red in the shadow - Capture One pretty much removes it entirely.

I am finding this to be a particular nuisance when trying to lift detail out of the shadows, only to find that there is no colour in the shadows. 

Has anyone else encountered this issue and has anyone found a fix that they might be able to help me out with?

Cheers

[jaapv]

If you cannot find a colour profile that makes you happy, the obvious solution is to create your own. Have a look at the X-Rite site for the Color-Checker passport.

 

https://www.xrite.com/categories/calibration-profiling/colorchecker-targets/colorchecker-passport-photo-2

 

Unfortunately, color profiling seems to be a bit  complicated in Capture One. one of the experts on C1 will have to weigh in. In general, the friction between Phase1 and Leica tends to create problems like these for the users.

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[rim_light]

For Capture One I recommend the software Lumariver to make ICC profiles - see more at http://www.lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/#c1_workflows

[AMcB]

Thanks for the tip about Lumariver. I don't suppose anyone reading this has already created an M10-P colour profile either in Capture One or using Lumariver? I'm not able to buy and use a Colour Checker since I'm currently based out in South Sudan. Getting hold of specialised gear here is impossible.

[nameBrandon]

Something didn't gel with me and Capture One + Leica after about v10 or so. I starting using Lightroom shortly after it came out and used it for close to 5 years, then switched to Capture One around v8 and used it for another 5 years. I've just recently switched back to Lightroom Classic. 

Capture One has better color control by far, but it seems to me, right out of the box without much tweaking, I see better results with LR these days. I shoot with a Sony A9 for other work and LR is doing just fine there as well, it's not just limited to Leica (I use an M10, no "P", but obviously the sensor is the same). Might be worth checking out again if you haven't used LR in a while.

 

[Nitnaros]

I thought there is not yet a C1 profile for the M10-P ... but I am on C1-v20

Overall, my color observations across camera platforms (but mainly Leica's & Fuji GFX) are:

- C1 has much more realistic color rendition than LR out of the box, and yes,  way better color editing capabilities

- Leica has overall worst auto whitebalance; incandescent light leads to very ugly purple skin tones more than on any other camera platform

- Fuji JPG color rendition light years ahead of Leica (yes, you don't need to use the JPGs, but they are nice to use if you need to be quick, or a great comparison for raw editing; particularly since you can apply Fuji film simulations to your raws)

My sense is that Leica optimizes and spends time on resolution and image quality; 
C1 was my counter measure to that.

Fuji spends more time on color (although resolution and image quality on my GFX 50S / 50R is top)

[Maarten]

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I use an M10 (without P) as well.
I use in C1 v12 a color correction I have found on the German forum.
It works well. I do not suffer from over-saturated colors.
I also never noticed problems when lifting the shadows.

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I would wait upgrading to C1 v20. I understand (again from the German forum) that the M10 profiles are even worse than in v12.

[rim_light]

20 minutes ago, Maarten said:

I would wait upgrading to C1 v20. I understand (again from the German forum) that the M10 profiles are even worse than in v12.

I use C1 v20 but don't have a M10(P). If you like: send me a dng file from you and I'll check it in v20 and send you the jpg.

[AMcB]

Thanks for the tip, Maarten. It seems however that the desaturation issue is a little more pronounced than those particular setting can help. 

I've attached two sample images here.

The first was edited with Capture One. I've chosen an image that was well underexposed. I have set 'Shadow' to 100 under 'High Dynamic Range' in order to demonstrate the level of desaturation once the shadows have been lifted. It is notable that there is virtually no colour in the parts of the picture that were originally hidden by shadow.

Compare that to the second image which I processed very roughly in photoshop. In comparison there is far more colour brought out from the shadows.

I guess the quickest solution is just to use Adobe software until Capture One fixes the issue. Only thing is I'm a fan of Capture One. 

 

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[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Nitnaros said:

I thought there is not yet a C1 profile for the M10-P ... but I am on C1-v20

Overall, my color observations across camera platforms (but mainly Leica's & Fuji GFX) are:

- C1 has much more realistic color rendition than LR out of the box, and yes,  way better color editing capabilities

- Leica has overall worst auto whitebalance; incandescent light leads to very ugly purple skin tones more than on any other camera platform

- Fuji JPG color rendition light years ahead of Leica (yes, you don't need to use the JPGs, but they are nice to use if you need to be quick, or a great comparison for raw editing; particularly since you can apply Fuji film simulations to your raws)

My sense is that Leica optimizes and spends time on resolution and image quality; 
C1 was my counter measure to that.

Fuji spends more time on color (although resolution and image quality on my GFX 50S / 50R is top)

Purple skin tones are a result of IR contamination. Leica M cameras have, by necessity, thin IR filters on the sensor.

[Maarten]

As an example I have lifted the shadows 100% in C1 v.12.
I exposed to keep the view through the window. No B&W effect as on your example.
When the underexposure is high, you can also try a mix of exposure, levels and shadow recovery.

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[AMcB]

Very odd. Thanks for sharing. Would you mind posting the same image at the original exposure so I can compare the difference. Which colour profile are you using?

[Maarten]

Here you go, the dng file imported in C1 v.12 and uncorrected (including tilting horizon).
I use the standard Leica M10 Generic profile with the applied curve (usually) on auto. The engine I use is the v.12 (obviously).
I use a Windows 10 PC.

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[cbarber]

About a month or so ago I noticed colours not looking right when using the M10 File Neutral ICC Profile and highish ISO files.

Apparently there is a known issue with the colour noise reduction in version 20 with the M10-P and noisy or highish ISO DNG files, turning the colour to a greyness. Keeping the colour noise reduction slider below 10-20 seems to solve this problem.

It worked for me. Might this be helpful to you?

[Wyck]

6 hours ago, AMcB said:

Thanks for the tip about Lumariver. I don't suppose anyone reading this has already created an M10-P colour profile either in Capture One or using Lumariver? I'm not able to buy and use a Colour Checker since I'm currently based out in South Sudan. Getting hold of specialised gear here is impossible.

 

I've been battling with Capture 1 since the M10P was released.  I have also been talking to Leica regarding this, and rather frustratingly nothing has happened as yet.  I was told about a year ago by Leica that Phase One had asked Leica if the sensors were the same, this was confirmed by Leica.  But still the M10P is not supported.

I used to have a M10 and it worked perfectly in C1 v 11 and v12.  

I then upgraded to the M10P.   I stupidly upgraded to V20 when I noticed in the release notes there was a fix for Leica M10 DNG files.  But was so disappointed when there wasn't.  I'm not a fan of LR so I purchased Lumariver and made my own profiles for the M10P.  I did try to edit the exif data too in an attempt to trick C1 into thinking the DNG file came from the M10.  I never expected to see the M10P in the list of ICC profiles in C1, because if you look at the M240 or M9 in the list there is no indication of the 'P' camera.  Obviously as the sensors are the same.  

If you send me a PM with your email I can send you a couple of .ICC profiles that may help you out.

Edited January 22, 2020 by Wyck
Text edit, email address needed in PM

[AMcB]

Oh wow. Clive Barber, I think you've solved this problem. When reducing the 'Color' slider down close to 0 under 'Noise Reduction', all the colour comes back into the image. I never would have put this down as a high ISO/noise issue. Many thanks

Just as a warning to those who will find this fix useful: there is a huge difference in the effect of changing between '0' and '1' on the scale. Find below a comparison in the amount of noise in the image between 0 and 1. Settings can be seen in the screenshots.

Many thanks to everyone for the help.

 

 

 

[AMcB]

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[budjames]

On 1/22/2020 at 7:49 AM, Nitnaros said:

I thought there is not yet a C1 profile for the M10-P ... but I am on C1-v20

Overall, my color observations across camera platforms (but mainly Leica's & Fuji GFX) are:

- C1 has much more realistic color rendition than LR out of the box, and yes,  way better color editing capabilities

- Leica has overall worst auto whitebalance; incandescent light leads to very ugly purple skin tones more than on any other camera platform

- Fuji JPG color rendition light years ahead of Leica (yes, you don't need to use the JPGs, but they are nice to use if you need to be quick, or a great comparison for raw editing; particularly since you can apply Fuji film simulations to your raws)

My sense is that Leica optimizes and spends time on resolution and image quality; 
C1 was my counter measure to that.

Fuji spends more time on color (although resolution and image quality on my GFX 50S / 50R is top)

I agree with your comments about the quality of Fuji X jpgs. I shot with a variety of Fuji cameras over a five year period. My dissatisfaction with Lightroom results on Fuji X RAF files led me to switching to Capture One Pro, now at version 20. 

Since switching to Leica M10 over two years ago, I have n]been very happy with my C1P results. I find that the Leica DNG files requires less processing than the Fuji X RAF files, even with version 20 of C1P.

A month ago, I purchased the new Leica SL2. C1P does not have a profile for this camera yet so it defaults to Generic DNG. With tweaking, I'm getting good results.

I also own Laminar 4 and On1 Photo RAW 2020. I prefer the look I get in C1P.

Regards,

Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.