Developing sequence questions

[pridbor]

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From the increase in posts I can tell that we are many new to this, very satisfying IMO, self Film development and whatever follows. 

I have been successful a few times using a C41 kit to develop 6 rolls of  35mm Color and B&W film.

The Procedure for C41, I gleaned from a website was as follows: Pre-Soak, Developer, Blix, Wash, Stabilizer, Wash.

Another Sequence I read about said: Develop, Bleach, Wash, Fix, Wash, Stabilizer, (and I assume a Wash although not mentioned, w/wo Pre-soak as per the most excellent recent topic in "Film".)

So I seem to have read that Bleach+Fix = Blix, (and another myriad of comments which is the best combination for stopping and fixing.)

So if e.g. Bleach is used, is it the one we use in our washing machine, or something very special to Film development?? and at what dilution if any etc.??? and then what is used as "the Fix"???

I can understand (maybe I assume) that the developer is proprietary to the film used, but what about the "Fixer and Stabilizer? 

Starting out one would like to keep it simple! I tried that by picking all C41 film (Color as well as B&W) such that I only need one set of chemicals. So far I have been OK with the Color film, but not quite so with the B&W (which I do prefer) and you folks in this forum all seem to push me towards film with less grain which are non C41 film (TMAX/was it FP5?). This would mean another set of chemicals altogether unless I can make use of some common liquids, like is there e.g. a common Fixer/Stabilizer I can use in conjunction with e.g. TMAX and/or Rodinal developers?

Sorry for this elaborate post

Thanks for any help

Preben 

 

 

 

[Chuck Albertson]

I wouldn't use this bleach on your laundry: https://www.freestylephoto.biz/static/pdf/msds/kodak/6600258_A_SDS.pdf

Blix is usually ammonium thiosulphate (rapid fixer) mixed with something else. You can't really mix end uses of C-41 and conventional b&w chemistry, certainly not the C-41 developer, and I think the C-41 fixer may not work well, either. Some people like to cross-process E-6 (slide) film in C-41 chemistry (or maybe it's vice versa - I never paid much attention to it) for the peculiar effect on colors.

You'll get as many opinions on conventional b&w film developers as there are photographers on this Forum.

[Pyrogallol]

I would not mix C41 chemicals with ordinary black and white chemicals, unless you intend to “cross process”. C41 Bleach/fix or blix is not the same as household bleach, the name “bleach” is just used to describe the effect it has on the image at that stage in the process. I have not tried using C41 blix as a fixer for black and white film, I imagine the fixing would work but leave a brown stain on the film.

Stabilizer is not used in black and white chemistry as it is not needed as part of the process.

Edited January 21, 2020 by Pyrogallol

[Richardgb]

The bleach used in colour processing oxidises (rehalogenises) the metallic silver produced in development back to a form which the fixer can remove, along with the undeveloped (i.e. unexposed) silver halide grains. This then leaves the colour (dye) image in the gelatin. In the early days, bleach and fix were separate stages in colour processing but it was later found the processes can be combined into a single step, called 'blix' (from bleach-fix).

Early bleaches for colour were potassium ferricycanide (oxidising agent) plus a source of bromine ions. Potassium ferricyanide was later replaces by iron sequestrene (see next paragraph) as the latter is less toxic when discharged into waterways.

When bleach and fix is combined, the problem was that the bleaching agent also affects the thiosulphate in the fix, so the the alternative is to use (wait for it...) iron (III) ethylenediamenetetra-acetic acid, more commonly known as EDTA, which does not decompose the thiosulphate.

EDTA was patented by Eastman Kodak (USP 4,294,194) in 1981 and for a while other users had to get their supplies from Kodak...

[Bobitybob]

Just for info, you can also get B&W developers/fixers (monobaths) that combine developer and fixer.  CineStill make both a two bath (dev/blix) C41 kit and a monobath B&W kit, so if you are trying to reduce the types/amounts of chemicals you use then it might be worth looking at their offerings.  I've used the C41 kit and it worked well, I've got a B&W kit but haven't got around to using it yet so can't vouch for it's abilities.

[adan]

1) I never pre-soak color film. It may be needed with roller-type motorized processing drums - but there is a problem.

Color film has three (or more) layers. One for each of the primary dye colors (cyan, magenta, yellow). Since it takes several seconds for the developer to penetrate the layers stacked on each other, the whole process is "tuned," chemically and chronologically, to adjust for the fact that the deepest layer will get a bit less development time. Pre-softening the gelatin with water will foul up that tuning/timing and lead to color problems (usually "curve crossover" - green/cyan highlights and red shadows or similar).

2) Virtually none of the chemicals in color processes can be replaced by B&W chemicals - or vice-versa. The processes are too different. Color developer contains "dye couplers." As the silver in the film is developed, by-products are produced by the reaction in the film, and those by-products combine with the dye-couplers to make the color dyes, co-located with the developed silver. B&W developers don't have the dye-couplers, so you will not get color pictures from color film if you use them. In fact, you won't get any pictures at all, since the B&W developers produce only silver - and the bleaching step removes the silver (that is its whole* function). Result - no image retained at all.

Bleach has been covered.

Fixer just might be swappable  - it just removes silver halides. But the C-41 fix is "designed for" the temperature (100°F) and timing for color film.

Stabilizer - see (4).

If one wants to process "B&W" and color in the same chemicals, there is Ilford XP2 Super film, which uses the same dye and C-41 chemistry as color neg film. Only difference is that it uses one gray dye instead of three colored dyes. It is nominally ISO 400, but thanks to the gentle contrast and density of dye images, can be shot at 100, 200, 400, or (with care) 800 and just use the standard C-41 time and temperature.

3) C-41 is a "standard" process, used worldwide for all C-41 films. You do not need "Kodak chemicals" to process "Kodak film" or "Fuji Chemicals" to process "Fuji film."

50 years ago or more, there were some proprietary color processes - Agfa was different from Kodak, and so on.

Globalization, plus consumer laws that outlawed selling film with processing included in the price (captive audience) killed that - everyone standardized on compatability with Kodak's C-41 neg and E6 slide processes (Kodak being the 800-lb gorilla in the marketplace back then). So that any film (except Kodachrome) could be processed by any lab anywhere, at the photographer's discretion.

There can be some variations in the exact C-41 chemicals used by company A or company B, for reasons of cost or convenience (i.e. using a Blix mix instead of separate Bleach and Fixer, or interchanging borax with some other alkali in the developer). But they all must comform to the basic chemistry of the dye couplers, and thus are essentially interchangeable.

4) Stabilizer is a preservative, because film's color dyes (and gelatin) are organic compounds not unlike food. They can "spoil" over time (again, excepting Kodachrome). Up until 10 years ago or so, stabilizers were primarily formalin or formaldehyde (think: "embalming fluid!"). But those were serious safety and ecological hazards and have been dropped. Stabilizers today are primarily "anti-biotics" (not the medicines, but simply milder poisons to prevent mold, mildew or bacteria "eating" the tasty gelatin and dyes) - plus a surfactant similar to Photo-Flo, to promote spotless drying.

5) In this world, some people are interested in photographs, and some are more interested in "making mud-pies" and paddling around in the chemicals. I'm in the first group, so I buy the box, read the manufacturer's instructions, and follow those to the letter. Job done.

___________________

*color-process bleach does have a second function - it "completes" some of the dye formation, especially in the cyan film layer, to avoid "leuco-cyan" (colorless cyan) dye that will result in poor red reproduction. It is important to agitate the bleach during that step, to "aerate" it, adding fresh oxygen from the air to replace that used up in performing this function - a reduction-oxidation reaction.

Edited January 25, 2020 by adan