Leica M10-R

[jaapv]

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Please people, read Roger again: (including the comments)

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

There is not one sensor on this planet that "outresolves" a lens, nor is there a lens that "outresolves" a sensor.

Given a reasonable quality level, any lens will perform better on a better sensor and any sensor will perform better using a better lens.

 

[frame-it]

12 hours ago, Omegahalo@gmail.com said:

even states that you will have a higher percentage of missed shots given the high megapixels and lack of IBIS. Is this something to be worried about?

 

https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/

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[adan]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Please people, read Roger again: (including the comments)

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

There is not one sensor on this planet that "outresolves" a lens, nor is there a lens that "outresolves" a sensor.

Totally agree with the article.

System MTF = lens MTF x sensor MTF.

And since every lens and every sensor has an MTF of less than 1, any lens will degrade the theoretical MTF of a sensor, and any sensor will degrade the theoretical performance of a lens. This is called "the real world." But a better lens or sensor may degrade the sensor or lens less - an improvement, but not perfection.

I would note a particular exception to this rule (but as we know, it is the exceptions that prove the rule).

Here is a 200% detail (and the full frame for reference) of my acid-test subject for moiré - a local masonry building with a fine line-texture incised in the stone. (Brick walls? - hah - they are for the poseurs! ). Anyway, picture made with a 75 APO-Summicron at f/4-ish on a 24 Mpixel M10.

Of note, this subject also produced color moiré with both the 18 Mpixel M9, and the M8.

In this case, from this distance, the 75's resolution of these fine lines exceeds the Nyquist frequency of the 24 Mpixel sensor, and produces both color moiré (red and green/cyan lines that were not actually there) and sampling error/aliasing (the evenly-spaced lines acquire slightly uneven spacing and thicknesses in the final picture.)

This follows the rule to the extent that - any sensor can only degrade the ideal performance of any lens (and vice-versa).

A higher-resolution sensor (say, the M10-R) would - in theory, and probably in practice - have a higher Nyquist frequency, and thus capture these lines without the color artifacts. Less (but not zero) degradation.

But, turn around and buy a higher-resolution lens to "match" the higher resolution of the new sensor - and that lens may now exceed the Nyquist frequency of the higher-resolution sensor, and the moiré and aliasing will return. A "better" lens might actually introduce image problems. One can chase one's tail to infinity.

(Thumbnail Nyquist frequency explanation for digital photography - a sampling device (the sensor) needs to resolve at least twice the resolution of the signal frequency (the lens' resolution) to be sure of avoiding moiré artifacts. More detailed explanation here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nyquist_frequency )

Sensors don't "need" better lenses - better lenses sometimes "need" better sampling (a higher-resolution sensor) to capture their more detailed "signal" with fewer artifacts.

(Since this is an M10-R thread, let's ignore what any Monochrom might or might not do - irrelevant to this discussion)

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[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, jaapv said:

Please people, read Roger again: (including the comments)

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

There is not one sensor on this planet that "outresolves" a lens, nor is there a lens that "outresolves" a sensor.

Given a reasonable quality level, any lens will perform better on a better sensor and any sensor will perform better using a better lens.

 

Roger summarizes it well in the Appendix, and is blunt about his reactions to statements (misconceptions) such as those presented in this thread and commonly elsewhere.

Jeff

[jaapv]

9 hours ago, frame-it said:

 

https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/

Yes - but there is a fallacy here: The motion blur issue is related to pixel size, not to pixel number. These 150 MP are spread out over a medium-format sensor...

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Yes - but there is a fallacy here: The motion blur issue is related to pixel size, not to pixel number. These 150 MP are spread out over a medium-format sensor...

sure..my point was, shoot at 1/500 min and there is no real motion blur at 40mp++..just requires a slight change in method...it sounds like many people pixel peep prints ?😁

Edited February 27, 2020 by frame-it

[Kwesi]

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On 2/24/2020 at 12:38 AM, adan said:

Could be because Kodak, with their 70 years experience with Kodachrome, made the M8/M9 CCD sensors, and chose Bayer filters with particular color transmissions that targeted the K'chrome "look". It has always been my theory that one reason Leica CCD cameras ran behind the competition in high-ISO range is that they (and Kodak) used filtering with a narrower spectral transmission range (less light got through, but it was purer in color).

Could be because the CCD sensors had less dynamic range - they produce punchy images like color slides, whereas sensors with more DR capture more tonal range, like color neg films, at the expense of *pop*.

Could depend on which camera profile you use (Leica embedded, Adobe, home-made).

Pop quiz: Can you tell which of these you like more? Can you say why you like it more? Can you tell which is M9 and which is M10?

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Hi Adan,

Curious as to which file belongs to which camera

[m410]

On 2/28/2020 at 4:41 PM, Kwesi said:

Hi Adan,

Curious as to which file belongs to which camera

Yes.

[adan]

OK, I was waiting for blacksinner to have a chance, but....

Top - M10

Bottom - M9

The M9 has brighter and more saturated reds, but they are inaccurately purplish and oversaturated (at default processing)

The M10 does a better job of distinguishing hues of green in, for example, the "pudding mountains" below the piggy. There is a different-green brush stroke to the left of the fork that is more clearly separated in the M10 picture.

Again, I find the differences to be minor. With appropriate camera calibration I was very pleased with M9 color, and I am also very pleased with M10 color.

As to skin tones, that is a matter of taste. I prefer the slightly-less magenta tint of the piggy's "skin" with the M10. But I guess it depends on whether one shoots for reality, or for "happy clients."

[Kwesi]

Thanks Adan,

its uncanny how similar they are. Even though I've  used both cameras extensively, I still had a tough time choosing. in the the end the second image seemed slightly more yellow while the top image seemed cooler and slightly more neutral which is how I remembered the M9. Thanks again for the comparison.

[sblutter]

I love the idea of more resolution, but I'm already making super sharp & detailed 60x40 inch prints by upping the resolution of captures from the M240 in PS

Maybe I'll pick up an M10R used in a few years.  I don't see it as a 'must have', which was the case when the 240 knocked out the M9.  40x60" is as big as I need

[Marckyokay]

All those IFs and WHENs and MAYBEs... I love this rumor analyzing. Do I assume correctly that all we have now are leaked pictures? Some certification leaks and leaked photos of a product... And we have no idea what it REALLY will be... Still it sparked a discussion in which one can learn so much... I love this forum. 

And here I am just quietly dreaming of what if Leica offers an upgrade program such as the M10 to P upgrade program as soon as the M10-R comes, knowing it won’t happen and the sheer thought might make people want to punch me 🙃

[darylgo]

On 3/1/2020 at 2:04 PM, adan said:

OK, I was waiting for blacksinner to have a chance, but....

Top - M10

Bottom - M9

The M9 has brighter and more saturated reds, but they are inaccurately purplish and oversaturated (at default processing)

The M10 does a better job of distinguishing hues of green in, for example, the "pudding mountains" below the piggy. There is a different-green brush stroke to the left of the fork that is more clearly separated in the M10 picture.

Again, I find the differences to be minor. With appropriate camera calibration I was very pleased with M9 color, and I am also very pleased with M10 color.

As to skin tones, that is a matter of taste. I prefer the slightly-less magenta tint of the piggy's "skin" with the M10. But I guess it depends on whether one shoots for reality, or for "happy clients."

The M9 ir contamination issue was not solved in its entirety, use of the ir/uv filter eliminates the issue for me as it did the M8. The greens were polluted, this was obvious to me although the reds escaped my attention. I continue to use the filters with my M240, which allows enough ir through to the sensor that I can shoot ir images changing to a 92ir filter. I haven’t tested an M10, the SL completely eliminates any ir with a much sharper cut off in the filter stack.   The ccd vs cmos may be influenced here by ir, a simple test with a uv/ir filter on an M10 would tell us if Leica was able to more sharply cut the ir pollution on this sensor with a change in the filter stack or the sensor itself. 

[Corvus]

On 1/20/2020 at 9:37 PM, frame-it said:

well, my 50mm summilux-M ASPH is amazing on my GFX50R

Yes, BUT the 50 Cron APO is WAY better on GFX's.

[LBJ2]

On 1/18/2020 at 11:04 AM, james.liam said:

It's interesting in that they appear to be adopting a modified Sony approach into prolonging a product cycle, as with the a7.

Also lets them amortize the superb M10 body shell and mechanicals. As Jaap always emphasizes, the heat dissipation issue always rears its ugly head. Buys more time to solve this for future models.

I'm hoping for a new Visoflex with its own separate battery source to supplement any draw on the main battery thus permitting a higher resolution and frame rate?

Also, a high-res M10 buys them time to release an array of lenses appropriate to the new sensor's abilities and what's to come in an M11, now possibly 2-3 years off.

First lenses in line one might postulate, would be those longer in the tooth and/or indispensable for the M system:

50 Summilux (2004)

50 Noctilux (2008)--perhaps in a carbon fibre shell

35 Summicron ASPH (1996)

50 Summicron (1979)

90 Summicron APO (1998)

??? new Bi & Tri-Elmars ???

"I'm hoping for a new Visoflex with its own separate battery source to supplement any draw on the main battery thus permitting a higher resolution and frame rate?" 👍