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Leica M10-R


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10 hours ago, bags27 said:

Sean Reid has also recently written in detail about what he considers the misconception that vintage glass doesn't render as well on high mps sensors.

It is not just considered such by him - it is a flat-earth type of misconception. ;)

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15 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

More likely  :  1/( 1/lens + 1/sensor ) ... so asymptotic.

I would not dispute it. This is discussed in the comments of the blog. As my eyes go glazy as soon as Fourier transformations come up, I hold no opinion. 

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On 1/20/2020 at 3:54 PM, helged said:

Or both... ;)

All of my Leica M lenses are current models even though some of their designs are 10 years old. My Nocticlux 50mm f0.95, APO Summicron M 50mm, Summilux M 35mm and Summicron M 35mm all perform well on my new SL2 using the Leica M adapter. I can finally focus my Noctilux reliably when mounted on my SL2.

I have made a number of large prints from captures using M lenses on my SL2. The fine detail and contrast is excellent. 

I also own the Summicron SL 35. It is an excellent lens. I plan on buying the Summicron SL 50 some time this year. 

A new M with the SL sensor would be well received IMHO. Although my current M10 24 Mpx is plenty good for my travel and street photography needs. 

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

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23 hours ago, jaapv said:

The old fallacy. Lens vs. sensor is NOT a weakest link situation, but best described as IQ=sensor resolution x lens resolution, which means that there is no "resolution limit" 

I strongly recommend the reading of this blog, and importantly, the discussions in the comments.

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

Sorry if I expressed myself unclearly. My point was exactly that which is explained in the Lensrentals article. You get the optimal result (highest system MTF) when the MTFs of the sensor and the lens are in balance. If one of them is significantly lower than the other, increasing the bigger one even further will improve the result, but only up to the limit set by the lower M. So when you increase sensor MTF (by adding megapixels), at some point it makes sense to start increasing lens MTF as well.

The current standard measurement for full-frame at a maximum line frequency of 40 lp/mm, at which most M glass performs excellently, may in the future be complemented with measurements at higher frequencies because of increased sensor resolutions. The article is about a test with measurements at up to 200 lp/mm (no Leica lenses in the test, though).

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1 hour ago, mujk said:

Sorry if I expressed myself unclearly. My point was exactly that which is explained in the Lensrentals article. You get the optimal result (highest system MTF) when the MTFs of the sensor and the lens are in balance. If one of them is significantly lower than the other, increasing the bigger one even further will improve the result, but only up to the limit set by the lower M. So when you increase sensor MTF (by adding megapixels), at some point it makes sense to start increasing lens MTF as well.

The current standard measurement for full-frame at a maximum line frequency of 40 lp/mm, at which most M glass performs excellently, may in the future be complemented with measurements at higher frequencies because of increased sensor resolutions. The article is about a test with measurements at up to 200 lp/mm (no Leica lenses in the test, though).

In the conclusion of Roger's article:

If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.

Roger’s rule: If you have either a crappy lens or crappy camera, improve the crappy part first; you get more bang for your $. 

There are no crappy Leica lenses and/or cameras, AFAIK.

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On 1/21/2020 at 6:08 AM, nicci78 said:

<snip>

Apparently M10 Monochrom and M10-R passed wireless certifications under the same certificate. Meaning that they are sharing the same sensor. Except one is bayerless.

I do not understand how wireless certification relates to the sensor used. I always assumed that wireless certification was about hardware for Bluetooth and WiFi.

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Any electrical device emits electromagnetic radiation. Infrared waves if it gets warm (sensors can heat up with use); general EMF anywhere current (charged particles) is flowing (processors, a camera's shutter motor, flow of charge or voltage off an image sensor); possibly microwaves - and of course visible light (from signal LEDs or the LCD screen on the back, etc.)

The M9 and Monochrom M had no WiFi or Bluetooth - they still had to have an emissions certification sticker on the bottom.

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On 2/11/2020 at 9:27 PM, adan said:

Any electrical device emits electromagnetic radiation. Infrared waves if it gets warm (sensors can heat up with use); general EMF anywhere current (charged particles) is flowing (processors, a camera's shutter motor, flow of charge or voltage off an image sensor); possibly microwaves - and of course visible light (from signal LEDs or the LCD screen on the back, etc.)

The M9 and Monochrom M had no WiFi or Bluetooth - they still had to have an emissions certification sticker on the bottom.

Thank you for the explanation. If M10R and M10M indeed have the same wireless certification, then it should mean that all internal hardware is identical. Adding a CFA to a sensor should not require a different certification, I guess. Adding a different sensor would probably require different hardware, which would require different certification, I assume. While it is not certain, it does sound logical.

M10-R requires different software than M10 Monochrom, which changes the behavior of the camera. I must say that I am surprised that both cameras can run under the same certification.

 

Edited by SrMi
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On 1/21/2020 at 2:05 PM, Telemetric said:

Anyone knows the Pixel size of the M10 and the M10R?

i believe the m10 is 6µm i saw it somewhere. that is the highest pixel pitch on any 24MP camera. m9 is even higher around 6.9µm. thats why m9 is so good. i can't wait to see what leica did with the m10R. does this theory is true in these days 'larger pixel pitch means better image quality". if the m10-r is not better then i'll stick with 24mp or even the mighty m9. 

actually if someone has m246 and m10m, they can test it which is better now. i believe it'll apply to m10-p and m10-r as well.

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On 2/13/2020 at 5:55 AM, blacksinner said:

i believe the m10 is 6µm i saw it somewhere. that is the highest pixel pitch on any 24MP camera. m9 is even higher around 6.9µm. thats why m9 is so good. i can't wait to see what leica did with the m10R. does this theory is true in these days 'larger pixel pitch means better image quality". if the m10-r is not better then i'll stick with 24mp or even the mighty m9. 

actually if someone has m246 and m10m, they can test it which is better now. i believe it'll apply to m10-p and m10-r as well.

In current-generation digital cameras, pixel pitch is (more or less) a function of sensor size and MP count.  All "standard" 36x24 mm sensors at 24 MP therefore have approximately the same pixel pitch size.  The M9 has large pixels than the M10 because it packs fewer of them (18 MP instead of 24 MP) into the same-sized sensor.  Does that mean the M9 takes better photos than the M10?  No, because each pixel in the M10 sensor offers other performance advantages than those in the M9 sensor.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M9,Leica M10

Edited by onasj
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16 hours ago, onasj said:

In current-generation digital cameras, pixel pitch is (more or less) a function of sensor size and MP count.  All "standard" 36x24 mm sensors at 24 MP therefore have approximately the same pixel pitch size.  The M9 has large pixels than the M10 because it packs fewer of them (18 MP instead of 24 MP) into the same-sized sensor.  Does that mean the M9 takes better photos than the M10?  No, because each pixel in the M10 sensor offers other performance advantages than those in the M9 sensor.

http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M9,Leica M10

its not about the dynamic range, its about how good the quality of the picture. M9 files doesn't need any extra profile like m10, its simply adobe color profile in lightroom. M10 does need M10 profile to get the color. the color on the M9 is already has good saturation and the color is so nice with the dng file without the need of color profile. of course the dynamic range is not on par with the M10, dynamic range is only mean how long you can stretch the file on highlight and shadow. if we compare to the naked file, put the same color profile, shaprness and everything back to 0 (sometimes, the default sharpness in lightroom is aroun 30 btw) the M9 produce sharper image compare to other camera. at least this is what i feel. please see this blog street silhouettes, m9 ccd, cmos.  he also feel the same with me. well its hard to prove though. 

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6 hours ago, blacksinner said:

its not about the dynamic range, its about how good the quality of the picture. M9 files doesn't need any extra profile like m10, its simply adobe color profile in lightroom. M10 does need M10 profile to get the color. the color on the M9 is already has good saturation and the color is so nice with the dng file without the need of color profile. of course the dynamic range is not on par with the M10, dynamic range is only mean how long you can stretch the file on highlight and shadow. if we compare to the naked file, put the same color profile, shaprness and everything back to 0 (sometimes, the default sharpness in lightroom is aroun 30 btw) the M9 produce sharper image compare to other camera. at least this is what i feel. please see this blog street silhouettes, m9 ccd, cmos.  he also feel the same with me. well its hard to prove though. 

Having come only now to your website, congratulations. I'm sorry it's ended, but I have so many entries to backfill.

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On 2/13/2020 at 5:55 AM, blacksinner said:

i believe the m10 is 6µm i saw it somewhere. that is the highest pixel pitch on any 24MP camera. m9 is even higher around 6.9µm. thats why m9 is so good. i can't wait to see what leica did with the m10R. does this theory is true in these days 'larger pixel pitch means better image quality". if the m10-r is not better then i'll stick with 24mp or even the mighty m9. 

actually if someone has m246 and m10m, they can test it which is better now. i believe it'll apply to m10-p and m10-r as well.

https://www.digicamdb.com/specs/leica_m10/. Lists 6 µm and pixel density 2.78 MP/cm²

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On 2/13/2020 at 2:55 AM, blacksinner said:

i believe the m10 is 6µm i saw it somewhere. that is the highest pixel pitch on any 24MP camera. m9 is even higher around 6.9µm. thats why m9 is so good. i can't wait to see what leica did with the m10R. does this theory is true in these days 'larger pixel pitch means better image quality". if the m10-r is not better then i'll stick with 24mp or even the mighty m9. 

actually if someone has m246 and m10m, they can test it which is better now. i believe it'll apply to m10-p and m10-r as well.

My Canon 30D (year 2000 model, 8Mp) has pixel pitch of 10.52 µm. Still, it does not produce a better image than the M10 🙂.

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On 1/18/2020 at 11:04 AM, james.liam said:

It's interesting in that they appear to be adopting a modified Sony approach into prolonging a product cycle, as with the a7.

Also lets them amortize the superb M10 body shell and mechanicals. As Jaap always emphasizes, the heat dissipation issue always rears its ugly head. Buys more time to solve this for future models.

I'm hoping for a new Visoflex with its own separate battery source to supplement any draw on the main battery thus permitting a higher resolution and frame rate?

Also, a high-res M10 buys them time to release an array of lenses appropriate to the new sensor's abilities and what's to come in an M11, now possibly 2-3 years off.

First lenses in line one might postulate, would be those longer in the tooth and/or indispensable for the M system:

50 Summilux (2004)

50 Noctilux (2008)--perhaps in a carbon fibre shell

35 Summicron ASPH (1996)

50 Summicron (1979)

90 Summicron APO (1998)

??? new Bi & Tri-Elmars ???

I never considered the possibility the higher MP sensors would create demand for a new generation of higher resolution lenses. It’s truly a double win for Leica and also for users with very deep pockets. 

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