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Leica M10-R


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2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Son of a gun, you're right, S 007 and M 240 use the same per-pixel architecture. 

https://www.digicamdb.com/compare/leica_s-type-007-vs-leica_m-typ-240/

 

 

Given 'similar' sensors; does the 16-ish bit (S007) and 14-ish bit (M240) explain the output difference between the two bodies, or are other processing steps kicking in? (certainly yes, but at which degree?). 

Pardon the question - I am clearly a novice in sensor-processing-land...

But interesting to speculate about since S3 and M10M, M10-R and (possibly) Q2M appear to be the 'new' Leica siblings. 

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16 minutes ago, helged said:

Wait for the forthcoming FW update, should be greatly improved, according to rumors/insiders. Whether true, and to which extent, remains to be seen... 

 

Thanks Helge, will keep an eye out. It's a great camera otherwise 

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb helged:

Given 'similar' sensors; does the 16-ish bit (S007) and 14-ish bit (M240) explain the output difference between the two bodies, or are other processing steps kicking in? (certainly yes, but at which degree?). 

Pardon the question - I am clearly a novice in sensor-processing-land...

But interesting to speculate about since S3 and M10M, M10-R and (possibly) Q2M appear to be the 'new' Leica siblings. 

That’s a question for Andy, I suppose.  Larger sensor equals better, smoother tonality, for sure. “Because the frame is larger, there is more space to make a tonal transition than on 35mm.”

https://fstoppers.com/originals/medium-format-look-real-or-hoax-395685

 

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On 1/18/2020 at 3:15 PM, bherman01545 said:

I think that a 40-47mp M series camera is certainly a logical progression, and we agree that it makes sense for some, but not for others.

So now, let's talk about lenses...

The SL/SL2 line came out with the highest-resolving lenses in Leica's lineup, capable of resolving 40-80 lines/mm (or whatever Peter Karbe said) to keep up with the ultra-high resolution sensor. These lenses were designed from the ground up for high-res digital.

Now that a 40+ MP sensor is on the horizon the M Series, with the exception of the 50mm APO Summicron, how will some of the Leica 20-30+ year old designs hold up?

For example: The 50mm F2 Summicron 11826 is a 20-30 year old design, (or older) the 50mm F/1.4 Summilux ASPH FLE came out at least 10-years ago?

I mean, I won't be 'pixel-peeping' to that level, but the SL lenses are supposed to be on another level than most of the M lenses.

-Brad

I agree. Looking at lens resolution measurements and MTF graphs, I would say that Leica will soon be hitting the resolution limit also with many newer M lenses. Only at optimum aperture and in the middle of the image will lens resolution match that of the sensor. This may already be the case with the M10M 40Mp B&W sensor that has a real resolution of 40Mp, but current Leica FF color sensors may not have reached that limit quite yet.

Of course, also older lenses with lower resolution will benefit somewhat from a sensor that outperforms them, but maximum benefit will not be achieved and reviews may not be that great (this has happened to other brands in the same situation, e.g with the 50Mp Canon 5DSR). So Leica will eventually have to choose between designing new, high-performance M glass or stop increasing sensor resolution of new Ms.

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4 minutes ago, mujk said:

Of course, also older lenses with lower resolution will benefit somewhat from a sensor that outperforms them, but maximum benefit will not be achieved and reviews may not be that great (this has happened to other brands in the same situation, e.g with the 50Mp Canon 5DSR). So Leica will eventually have to choose between designing new, high-performance M glass or stop increasing sensor resolution of new Ms.

Or both... ;)

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10 minutes ago, helged said:

Or both... ;)

I agree. They've started doing exactly that with the 28s and the 35/2 ASPH v2. I wouldn't be surprised to see a refresh of the non- APO 50/2 perhaps with the square hood

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On 1/18/2020 at 10:04 AM, james.liam said:

It's interesting in that they appear to be adopting a modified Sony approach into prolonging a product cycle, as with the a7.

Also lets them amortize the superb M10 body shell and mechanicals. As Jaap always emphasizes, the heat dissipation issue always rears its ugly head. Buys more time to solve this for future models.

I'm hoping for a new Visoflex with its own separate battery source to supplement any draw on the main battery thus permitting a higher resolution and frame rate?

Also, a high-res M10 buys them time to release an array of lenses appropriate to the new sensor's abilities and what's to come in an M11, now possibly 2-3 years off.

First lenses in line one might postulate, would be those longer in the tooth and/or indispensable for the M system:

50 Summilux (2004)

50 Noctilux (2008)--perhaps in a carbon fibre shell

35 Summicron ASPH (1996)

50 Summicron (1979)

90 Summicron APO (1998)

??? new Bi & Tri-Elmars ???

I agree the Upcoming 50 Summilux APO rumors may have some truth behind them.  Whats interesting is lensrentals resolution tests of M lenses vs Sigma and Otus flagships.  The 50 Summicron M beats (wide open mid frame and corners) the Otus 55 and the Sigma 50/1.4; the 50 Summilux wins all around wide open vs the Otus and Sigma; the 50 APO M easily wins even when the Otus and Sigma are stopped down to f2.  see article below. 
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/comparing-rangefinder-and-slr-50mm-lenses-version-0-7/

these old lens designs are still quite powerful, even at high res sensors.  The current M lens lineup befits a high MP sensor as well as they do a low res sensor.  Roger C of lensrentals describes camera/lens resolution as a function= lens resolving ability X camera resolving ability.  Thus a higher MP sensor benefits from a good lens the same as a lower MP sensor may benefit.  See article below for info source.  @bherman01545 @mujk

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

Edited by NRKstudio
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35 minutes ago, NRKstudio said:

I agree the Upcoming 50 Summilux APO rumors may have some truth behind them.  Whats interesting is lensrentals resolution tests of M lenses vs Sigma and Otus flagships.  The 50 Summicron M beats (wide open mid frame and corners) the Otus 55 and the Sigma 50/1.4; the 50 Summilux wins all around wide open vs the Otus and Sigma; the 50 APO M easily wins even when the Otus and Sigma are stopped down to f2.  see article below. 
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/comparing-rangefinder-and-slr-50mm-lenses-version-0-7/

these old lens designs are still quite powerful, even at high res sensors.  The current M lens lineup befits a high MP sensor as well as they do a low res sensor.  Roger C of lensrentals describes camera/lens resolution as a function= lens resolving ability X camera resolving ability.  Thus a higher MP sensor benefits from a good lens the same as a lower MP sensor may benefit.  See article below for info source.  @bherman01545 @mujk

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

well, my 50mm summilux-M ASPH is amazing on my GFX50R

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On 1/18/2020 at 10:45 PM, FrankF said:

I am an IC guy,  I understand the technology and what is possible.  What I read in your response is that they cut through a chip to make it smaller in pixel count.  I am sure this is not possible. 

Maybe you meant that they could make a wafer , or rather mask, that accommodate different chips on the same wafer..... done all the time.....  But that means tha if you have a big order for one design on the wafer, you are wasting space for that chip and also making chips you can not sell ( remember, you got an order for  1  size, not the other).  It works for small volumes, is a disaster for large volumes.  Can you explain your comments more so that I understand better?

Of course it is masking to get different size of sensor.

Sensor chips, unlike CPU, GPU or memory chips do not gain anything from smaller and smaller transistors size. Their size is fixed. You would not be happy to end end with a Full frame sensor shrink into an 1 inch one. 

The only way to reduce cost of very big sensors, such as medium format, is to make up loss with the unused part of the wafer. Filling it up with smaller size sensors. 

Without its partnership with Sony and Fujifilm, PhaseOne would have to continue to buy prohibitively expensive 645 sensor. Their partnership are quite sound : PhaseOne provides to them access to a tailor suit version of CaptureOne. In return they got access to cheaper 645 sensors. Fujifilm gains access to CaptureOne and to not too expensive 44*33 100MP sensor. It also got nice 26MP APS-C sensors to fit into XT-3 & X-Pro 3 cameras. On the other hand Sony, get two high profile customers for its semiconductors business and an access to CaptureOne and not too expensive 60MP 24x36 sensor. 

It is a win-win-win situation for all three. It just required a little planning of production among the three players. Which is not a problem, because Sony Semiconductors requires quite high minimum volume commitment. 

 

Same for Leica, with its already extremely expensive S3. If they do not optimised their wafer with smaller 20,89MP 24x36 M10 Monochrom and M10-R sensor. Their 64MP 45x30 will not be economically feasible. 

 

Apparently M10 Monochrom and M10-R passed wireless certifications under the same certificate. Meaning that they are sharing the same sensor. Except one is bayerless.

 

 

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My ideal camera judging by the specs and handling the M10.  I've had my M240 since 2013,  processor speed is secondary to the imaging, the M240 is a slug and it's rough, the images continue to be great.  Leica lenses have headroom for the larger pixel count, 24mp never pushed them to the limits, mtf curves into the 80's for some lenses.  In the past two years I've tried Nikon and Panasonic 40+ MP sensor cameras only to return them after discovering weakness in their lens systems, Leica has the lenses and now the mp to use them to full advantage.  

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/20/2020 at 9:50 PM, mujk said:

I agree. Looking at lens resolution measurements and MTF graphs, I would say that Leica will soon be hitting the resolution limit also with many newer M lenses. Only at optimum aperture and in the middle of the image will lens resolution match that of the sensor. This may already be the case with the M10M 40Mp B&W sensor that has a real resolution of 40Mp, but current Leica FF color sensors may not have reached that limit quite yet.

Of course, also older lenses with lower resolution will benefit somewhat from a sensor that outperforms them, but maximum benefit will not be achieved and reviews may not be that great (this has happened to other brands in the same situation, e.g with the 50Mp Canon 5DSR). So Leica will eventually have to choose between designing new, high-performance M glass or stop increasing sensor resolution of new Ms.

The old fallacy. Lens vs. sensor is NOT a weakest link situation, but best described as IQ=sensor resolution x lens resolution, which means that there is no "resolution limit" 

I strongly recommend the reading of this blog, and importantly, the discussions in the comments.

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

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On 1/21/2020 at 2:03 AM, Telemetric said:

I am more interested in dynamic range and a better controlled noise at high ISO than in a lot of megapixels. 

me too. But that's not what sells. A realtor friend of mine once said 'buyers are liars' meaning they will say what they want but end up buying something slightly different.

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5 hours ago, jaapv said:

The old fallacy. Lens vs. sensor is NOT a weakest link situation, but best described as IQ=sensor resolution x lens resolution, which means that there is no "resolution limit" 

I strongly recommend the reading of this blog, and importantly, the discussions in the comments.

 

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

The Appendix summarizes the issue simply.  Roger is the best.

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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