Leica M10-R

[Printmaker]

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Sounds good to me. My first Leica was a M2R; my last might as well be a M10R.

I find my M10 to be a near perfect camera for my purposes. Adding resolution sufficient for a 20x30 inch print without up-rezing only makes it a more perfect camera.

[frame-it]

1 hour ago, FrankF said:

I am an IC guy,  I understand the technology and what is possible.  What I read in your response is that they cut through a chip to make it smaller in pixel count.  I am sure this is not possible. 

Maybe you meant that they could make a wafer , or rather mask, that accommodate different chips on the same wafer..... done all the time.....  But that means tha if you have a big order for one design on the wafer, you are wasting space for that chip and also making chips you can not sell ( remember, you got an order for  1  size, not the other).  It works for small volumes, is a disaster for large volumes.  Can you explain your comments more so that I understand better?

i think he means, take one wafer array that has a certain pixel pitch, then cut various sizes from that wafer..so the result is e.g 3 different sensor arrays, with the same pixel pitch [distance between pixels], but different sensor sizes.

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[Mr.Prime]

it’s almost certainly not a mask being used for production, masks are not good enough for fine lithography. Instead it will be a set of reticles, with a collection of sensor design blocks. These blocks are stitched together during exposure of the wafer to create complete sensors. Different wafer maps allow for different sensor sizes, with some limitations. Complex wafer maps with different sensors on one wafer are very inefficient for wafer probing and dicing so more likely each sensor size has it’s own wafer map and wafer lots are dedicated to one size at a time.

 

It is inconceivable that the M10 mono had a dedicated sensor design, as some have speculated. The sensor design would have been aimed at covering as many combinations as possible, including colour versions with post processing to add the filters.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Mr.Prime

[hillavoider]

So far SL2 for less money and with maestro 3, ibis, and micro lens sensor at 47mp seems the best M camera 😆

Edited January 18, 2020 by hillavoider

[adan]

1 hour ago, FrankF said:

I am an IC guy,  I understand the technology and what is possible.  What I read in your response is that they cut through a chip to make it smaller in pixel count.  I am sure this is not possible. 

Maybe you meant that they could make a wafer , or rather mask, that accommodate different chips on the same wafer..... done all the time.....  But that means tha if you have a big order for one design on the wafer, you are wasting space for that chip and also making chips you can not sell ( remember, you got an order for  1  size, not the other).  It works for small volumes, is a disaster for large volumes.  Can you explain your comments more so that I understand better?

Not literally chopping up a large sensor.

More like, re-using the same per-pixel architecture or blueprint (thus with known S/N ratio, fill-factor, etc.) to forge different-sized multiples of those pixels.

Design a house once (a pixel). Lay out a megalopolis with 37.5 million houses (plus associated I/O circuits) - or a city with 18 million of the same "houses" - or a town with 10.8 million of the exact same houses.

Kinda the way developers build communities - one structure, repeated as many times as needed over whatever real-estate is desired or available. As the folk song says:

Little boxes on the sensor,
Little boxes made of silicon

Little boxes on the sensor,
Little boxes all the same,
There's a red one and a green one
And a green one and a blue one
And they're all made out of silicon
And they all look just the same.

(apologies to Malvina Reynolds)

 

It is not a new approach. Kodak did the same with their CCDs - same basic 6.8-micron pixel design used across different sensor sizes, but more and more (or fewer and fewer) of them arrayed to make sensors of different sizes without "reinventing the pixel" over and over. Leica went to Kodak and asked "Can you take the pixels of the 37.5 Mpixel KAF-50100 (for Hassy backs) and make an array of just 10.8 million of them for an 18mm x 27mm sensor (Leica DMR and M8)?" And then three years later, "Please use the same per-pixel structure all over again in a 24mm x 36mm array for the M9 (and eventually M Monochrom)."

Naturally, each sensor size gets forged independently, one size to a wafer.

[FrankF]

Thank you for explaining so that I understood you.  yes, I agree 100%.   A very common technique throughout the IC world.

Although I do not understand what melody should be playing during recital of your song...... ( tongue in cheek)

 

[Fedro]

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8 hours ago, hillavoider said:

So far SL2 for less money and with maestro 3, ibis, and micro lens sensor at 47mp seems the best M camera 😆

I agree unless they come up with better handling of noise  - which I find really disappointing on the SL2

[budjames]

For my needs, the most compelling reason to upgrade to the M10R from M10 is for the ability to crop. I took a vacation to Scotland and Ireland last summer. I took one M10 with the Summilux 35 and APO 50. The only lens I used was the Summilux 35. Traveling light without the need to change lenses would be even better.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

[Chaemono]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb helged:

As @jonoslack reports in his M10M review, the Maestro II processor is on the limit to (continuously) process 41 mp images. The same is the case for the S3, by the way, slightly dropping max fps compared to S007, both sharing Maestro II. I would therefore think that M11, or at least the high res version of M11, will embed the Maestro III processor introduced in SL2. If so, everything will speed up, and quite significantly so. Whether a high-speed M is at the top of the M ussr's wish list, is something else... 

Fully agree. They leave the Maestro II processor in there to benefit from economies of scale with the M10/P/M AND to keep it slow in order to make people anticipate the M11 upgrade.  I’m only interested in the DR and color of this cut down S3 sensor but won’t be getting it because without IBIS it needs good high ISO noise performance and it won’t have it, I’m afraid.  The M10 does, not at the level of the α7 III, Sigma fp, S1, all of which use basically the same 24 MPx BSI sensor, but it’s really useable up to ISO 6400 with no issues.  Plus M10 high ISO files can be pushed hard, too.  The SL upgrade to a higher resolution sensor made sense because of IBIS and the limited ‘push-ability’ of the original SL’s files.  The SL2 was a replacement of the SL, the M10-R is a complement.  Still, intrigued by how this new sensor performs, though.

[helged]

Yes, @Chaemono, it will be interesting to see/learn the colour rendering, DR and high-ISO of M10-R and S3. I have stepped over M10 (having the SL2), but the next iteration of the M might be of interest. In the mean time, it will be very interesting to see what Sigma Foveon FF can deliver (at low ISO). Interesting times...! 

Edited January 19, 2020 by helged

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Fully agree. They leave the Maestro II processor in there to benefit from economies of scale with the M10/P/M AND to keep it slow in order to make people anticipate the M11 upgrade.  I’m only interested in the DR and color of this cut down S3 sensor but won’t be getting it because without IBIS it needs good high ISO noise performance and it won’t have it, I’m afraid.  The M10 does, not at the level of the α7 III, Sigma fp, S1, all of which use basically the same 24 MPx BSI sensor, but it’s really useable up to ISO 6400 with no issues.  Plus M10 high ISO files can be pushed hard, too.  The SL upgrade to a higher resolution sensor made sense because of IBIS and the limited ‘push-ability’ of the original SL’s files.  The SL2 was a replacement of the SL, the M10-R is a complement.  Still, intrigued by how this new sensor performs, though.

 I was very much hoping for IBIS in the M10M. Maybe by the M11 we will have it. 

Is the M10M and M10R sensor definitively a derivative of the S3 sensor or is that speculation?

[mishi]

51 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

 I was very much hoping for IBIS in the M10M. Maybe by the M11 we will have it. 

Is the M10M and M10R sensor definitively a derivative of the S3 sensor or is that speculation?

Is IBIS possible with the M mount, being as small as it is? Would they have to make the sensor larger than full frame and do some sort of auto cropping in camera to get IBIS to work on such a small mount?

[Photon42]

No idea really - however the SL2 has IBIS and accepts M mount lenses (through an adapter) with seemingly very good results.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb dkmoore:

[...]

Is the M10M and M10R sensor definitively a derivative of the S3 sensor or is that speculation?

Logically derived speculation by Nicci and Andy makes it highly probable, IMO.  Although, Nicci did blow it once with that "36 MPx only" speculation for the SL2. 🤣

[dkmoore]

4 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Logically derived speculation by Nicci and Andy makes it highly probable, IMO.  Although, Nicci did blow it once with that "36 MPx only" speculation for the SL2. 🤣

Thanks for clarifying, makes sense. 

I'm not sure how I feel about that considering the S3 will likely be at least $20k body only. I wouldn't want the image quality matching a $9k camera. Or do camera manufacturers pull more IQ out of a given sensor some other way? Was the 007 sensor recyled?

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb dkmoore:

[...]
Or do camera manufacturers pull more IQ out of a given sensor some other way?
[...]

Could be.  The S3 sensor may have special glass to protect it against those x-ray machines at the airport. 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Chaemono

[BJohn]

6 hours ago, budjames said:

For my needs, the most compelling reason to upgrade to the M10R from M10 is for the ability to crop. I took a vacation to Scotland and Ireland last summer. I took one M10 with the Summilux 35 and APO 50. The only lens I used was the Summilux 35. Traveling light without the need to change lenses would be even better.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

Exactly my thoughts! One camera, one lens. During my last trips I also only used the Lux 35. Cropping would be helpful in some cases.

[Tailwagger]

It occurs to me that perhaps the M/R program was pressed forward for release a little earlier than Leica had initially anticipated.  Presumably the US tariffs are having some bottom line impact. Adding more untaxed bodies into the mix might help with that. One also might postulate that M sales are far less sensitive to lens availability than the SL, given all the decades of glass available. 

[Chaemono]

Am 18.1.2020 um 21:43 schrieb nicci78:

They are not different sensors. They are exactly the same, cut down into different size.

[...]

Leica has done this since the M 240. The Leica Max 24MP is a cut down version of Leica S (typ 007) 37.5MP sensor. Same tech, different cut size. But huge scale economy for Leica, because nobody made 37.5MP or 65MP 45x30 sensor. And Leica did not seem to sell tons of S cameras. 

Son of a gun, you're right, S 007 and M 240 use the same per-pixel architecture. 

https://www.digicamdb.com/compare/leica_s-type-007-vs-leica_m-typ-240/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[helged]

On 1/19/2020 at 9:36 AM, Fedro said:

I agree unless they come up with better handling of noise  - which I find really disappointing on the SL2

Wait for the forthcoming FW update, should be greatly improved, according to rumors/insiders. Whether true, and to which extent, remains to be seen...