Leica M10D banding

[SiOnara]

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Hi there,  just wondered if anyone has come across this before and please excuse the poor quality shots.

 

Taken at 10,000 IOS with M10D. 

 

Pictures either side of the three shots that came out like this were all fine. The backpack was clear in real life.  Looks almost like a electronic shutter effect but obviously on the M that’s impossible. 
 

The only think I can think of is it’s either a sensor issue or the new 7Artisans 75mm f1.25 is doing something very odd with the light. 
 

I did have something similar happen a few weeks ago when I first got the lens. Will do more tests over the next few days with some Leica lens to see if I can recreate it. 

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Edited January 17, 2020 by SiOnara

[SiOnara]

Actually I just noticed my 50mm Noctilux shot with a Noctilux that has a similar effect. Much more subtle though.  Again taken at 10,000 ISO. I do a lot of shots at 10,000 ISO and have never seen this before so maybe it’s a sensor issue?  Will test some more at various ISO’s inc 10,000. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by SiOnara

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[Toluene]

Couldn't it be caused by a light source that cycles very quickly (e.g. RGB LEDs) ?

[jaapv]

You are completely right, banding like this is caused by cycling light sources, in this case most likely fluorescents.

[SiOnara]

I would normally agree but I’ve also noticed very strong banding from pictures in a room I normally shoot without a problem. This room has Philips Hue LED bulbs.

Regarding these photos, I’ve shot in this location in London before without any problems. 

I’ll try a few more things to see if I can pinpoint what’s going on but it’s all a bit strange.

Edited January 26, 2020 by SiOnara

[SiOnara]

L1007486 is 10,000 iso natural daylight. 
L1007487 is 320 iso LED light. 
L1007488 is 10,000 iso LED light.

Normally everything looks fine. Taken with the APO 50 Summicron so it’s definitely not a lens issue.  Maybe the sensor is failing at higher ISO’s with artificial light?  
 

I’ll take the camera into Leica Mayfair to see what they think.

 

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Edited January 26, 2020 by SiOnara

[TomB_tx]

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The shutter speed changes to get proper exposure as you change ISO. LED lights "strobe" rapidly (as do fluorescent lights), so as the narrow slit in a focal-plane shutter traverses the frame, the light intensity will vary as the light strobes. (Just like using an electronic flash, where if the shutter speed is set too high only part of the frame is exposed.) 

So if you want to test at different ISO settings and compare, use a constant shutter speed and vary the f-stop to keep exposures equivalent.

Some LED lamps combine different colors of LEDs to "mix" into apparent white light. These can produce different colored bands at high shutter speeds.

In this kind of light use longer shutter speeds to avoid this effect.

[SiOnara]

16 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

The shutter speed changes to get proper exposure as you change ISO. LED lights "strobe" rapidly (as do fluorescent lights), so as the narrow slit in a focal-plane shutter traverses the frame, the light intensity will vary as the light strobes. (Just like using an electronic flash, where if the shutter speed is set too high only part of the frame is exposed.) 

So if you want to test at different ISO settings and compare, use a constant shutter speed and vary the f-stop to keep exposures equivalent.

Some LED lamps combine different colors of LEDs to "mix" into apparent white light. These can produce different colored bands at high shutter speeds.

In this kind of light use longer shutter speeds to avoid this effect.

I totally understand what you are saying but I’ve never had this issue occur with this particular light using my M8, M9, M240, M246, M10 and M10D. It’s only started recently with the M10D. 
 

I’ve seen this effect when I used a Leica CL and a Sony A7 with electronic shutter. 
 

I’ll do a high iso test with various shutters from fast to slow to see how this effects things.  

[jankap]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb SiOnara:

L1007486 is 10,000 iso natural daylight. 
L1007487 is 320 iso LED light. 
L1007488 is 10,000 iso LED light.

The exposure times would have been interesting. The good old bulbs were not so bad. I know, they ate electric current.

Edited January 26, 2020 by jankap

[SiOnara]

2 hours ago, jankap said:

The exposure times would have been interesting. The good old bulbs were not so bad. I know, they ate electric current.

L1007486 is 10,000 iso natural daylight - 1/45 sec
L1007487 is 320 iso LED light - 1/90 sec
L1007488 is 10,000 iso LED light - 1/4000 sec

Definitely holds with the fast shutter speed theory. Will test more with some slow shutters and high iso. 

[SiOnara]

Ok I’ve tested the camera at 10,000 iso at f16 and 1/15 sec and it was fine. I also tested at 100 iso at 1/4000 sec and I could see the banding. 
 

Mystery solved. It’s funny that I’ve never seen this before and often shoot at night on a fast shutter. 
 

Thanks for everyone’s help. 

[IkarusJohn]

I tend to limit my M10-D to 1600 ISO, or less.  It’s probably overly conservative, but I’d rather cope with balancing aperture, shutter speed and motion blur than deal with nasty grain and noise at high ISO.  Most of the time, I use 100 ISO if I can.  It’s possible I’m missing something, but ISO 10,000 is over 7 stops above base ISO (in sensitivity terms) - what shutter speed and f stop are you using to maintain this preference?

I’m not being critical, I just don’t really understand what you’re photographing that needs such an extreme sensor sensitivity.  With modern fast lenses, f/4 will typically get the best out of your lenses, even f/2.8 (actually, f/2 is fine with your APO, as it is very nearly diffraction limited).  Adopting 2/f for minimum shutter speed, you’ve still got a lot of headroom at 1/100 with your APO 50 Summicron - EV10 at base ISO, f/2.8 @1/125.  I can’t imagine that ISO 10,000 is doing your APO any favours ...

[SiOnara]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

I tend to limit my M10-D to 1600 ISO, or less.  It’s probably overly conservative, but I’d rather cope with balancing aperture, shutter speed and motion blur than deal with nasty grain and noise at high ISO.  Most of the time, I use 100 ISO if I can.  It’s possible I’m missing something, but ISO 10,000 is over 7 stops above base ISO (in sensitivity terms) - what shutter speed and f stop are you using to maintain this preference?

I’m not being critical, I just don’t really understand what you’re photographing that needs such an extreme sensor sensitivity.  With modern fast lenses, f/4 will typically get the best out of your lenses, even f/2.8 (actually, f/2 is fine with your APO, as it is very nearly diffraction limited).  Adopting 2/f for minimum shutter speed, you’ve still got a lot of headroom at 1/100 with your APO 50 Summicron - EV10 at base ISO, f/2.8 @1/125.  I can’t imagine that ISO 10,000 is doing your APO any favours ...

 

I’d say I shoot 95% of my photography at f8. That’s why my favourite lens is my 50mm f2.8 Elmar-M or my 35mm Summarit. 
 

Another style I like shooting is street at night with a 50mm lens at f5.6 or f8. When I’m shooting like this I sometimes need to push the sensor up high, hence 10,000. 
 

I sometimes shoot wide open with my Noctilux or Summilux but it’s usually when I get a craving to shoot at such a small DOF. 

My iso limit with the M10 has always been 10,000 in colour and 16,000 in monochrome.  I actually like the organic grain at these high speeds so that’s never been an issue for me. Above those speeds I’d find noise banding could be an issue. 
 

Edited January 26, 2020 by SiOnara