Not sure if I want upgrade to M10 anymore.

[ianman]

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50 minutes ago, otto.f said:

See the link in OP

Ah ok, thanks.

Having just read it, I don't find the article has any interest**. The author is all over the place ending one paragraph with "I really can’t say that I miss shooting the M10 at all - having shot the M9 for almost a month." and in the next writing "I don’t believe there is enough of a difference for me to abandon the Leica M10 in favor of the Leica M9". In fact he comes across, like most of these reviewers as someone who is more interested in the gear for it's own sake than going out and actually using it.

** except for giving me a craving for eggs benedict.

Edited January 16, 2020 by ianman

[dkmoore]

OP, you state twice that the author definitely states the image quality of the M9 is better than the M10. That is simply not the point the author is making. But it does not matter anyway because if you like the M9 IQ better, that’s all that matters for you.

my sole point is that you misinterpreted the article (could easily be a language barrier or translation issue). 

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[ianman]

24 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

my sole point is that you misinterpreted the article (could easily be a language barrier or translation issue). 

To be fair, as I wrote above, the author contradicted himself.

It's clear to anyone that there are differences, but, as dkmoore, the author and so many others have pointed out, there is no "best" or "better", it's a question of personal preference. The CCD v CMOS debate is exactly the same as a HP5 v Tri-x debate, neither is emphatically better than the other.

Even though after reading the article the authors preference is unclear, at least the difference is recognized and acknowledged. Not as in another thread here where a posted suggested that nobody cares about the differences between sensors. That is just complete and utter ignorance.

[evikne]

He didn't even mention what color profile he was using, and if it was the same profile for both cameras. With my M10 I use Adobe Color or Leica M10 as my main color profiles in LR, and these give a very different starting point. I also have a ton of other profiles for any purpose. 

I don't doubt there are differences between the sensors, but there is no reason to be tied to the colors you get as your starting point.

[ianman]

9 minutes ago, evikne said:

I don't doubt there are differences between the sensors, but there is no reason to be tied to the colors you get as your starting point.

Well I wouldn't say that the rendering differences are confined to the colours. If it were the case than I would agree... more or less. I really can't stand spending too much time faffing about on the computer.

[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, dkmoore said:

OP, you state twice that the author definitely states the image quality of the M9 is better than the M10. That is simply not the point the author is making. But it does not matter anyway because if you like the M9 IQ better, that’s all that matters for you.

my sole point is that you misinterpreted the article (could easily be a language barrier or translation issue). 

Translation indeed. I never mentioned author, I have mentioned person who provided this link and made conclusion about M9 been better than M10.

Twice, but not the author, I hope it is clear now. Not sure, why you translated it so oddly:

Quote

 

This link was posted by person who damaged m10 behind repair. He googled m9 vs m10 and google return is above.

After he looked at article images, his conclusion.... m9 wins.

 

 

[Ko.Fe.]

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3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I’m referring to USER created presets. These are nothing more than user established processing routines that can be used to save time.  One can establish dozens... or none. Same with color profiles... one has choices.  

I treat each pic individually, and apply PP as needed and desired (a little or a lot), with the goal of a fine print (assuming the pic is worthy).  I’ve never made a final, display worthy print without some judicious use of PP,  darkroom or digital, b/w or color, since the 70’s... only the tools have changed. Otherwise, we’d all produce the same looking stuff when using the same gear... no thanks.

Jeff

I was mentioning user presets as well. I see nothing wrong to have pictures recognizable by camera sensor and lens. Nothing wrong with it. Tweaking camera, lens rendering just for reason to have it different is odd demand to me.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I was mentioning user presets as well. I see nothing wrong to have pictures recognizable by camera sensor and lens. Nothing wrong with it. Tweaking camera, lens rendering just for reason to have it different is odd demand to me.

My goal when processing and printing an image is not to make it different per se; it’s to render it a way that suits my particular style and tastes.  And that inevitably requires edits for technical and aesthetic reasons. Hopefully our styles and tastes are different.  I have no interest in homogenized art.  I’m the one making the final print, not the camera or other tools. How I get there is if no interest to the viewer, with the possible exception of people on a gear forum.

Jeff

[Ko.Fe.]

24 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

My goal when processing and printing an image is not to make it different per se; it’s to render it a way that suits my particular style and tastes.  And that inevitably requires edits for technical and aesthetic reasons. Hopefully our styles and tastes are different.  I have no interest in homogenized art.  I’m the one making the final print, not the camera or other tools. How I get there is if no interest to the viewer, with the possible exception of people on a gear forum.

Jeff

I make my pictures different by the content on them. I don't think it is difference in tastes.

It is principal, maybe. Magnum photog Gueorgui Pinkhassov started iPhone photography with presets and filters. But dumped it all and did it well with iPhone straight images. https://www.magnumphotos.com/events/event/mobile-phone-photography-masterclass-with-gueorgui-pinkhassov-in-beijing/

Edited January 16, 2020 by Ko.Fe.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, Ko.Fe. said:

I make my pictures different by the content on them. I don't think it is difference in tastes.

The vision, style and taste obviously starts where one points the camera; that goes without saying (or so I thought).  But it doesn’t end there. That’s one reason why photo history has many more talented photographers than printers.  But it’s all about having a vision, a good eye and good judgment, not the tools.  

Jeff

[silverchrome]

On 1/17/2020 at 12:25 AM, ianman said:

Even though after reading the article the authors preference is unclear, at least the difference is recognized and acknowledged. Not as in another thread here where a posted suggested that nobody cares about the differences between sensors. That is just complete and utter ignorance.

I guess that dig is aimed at me...

Except that I DID NOT  say "nobody cares about the differences between sensors."  

I ACTUALLY said "some people couldn’t give a monkey’s about the sensor [when buying a Leica] and simply want a reliable digital M that they can use their M lenses with.  Big difference. 

In fact, I DID NOT make any reference to the qualities of the CCD at all in any of my replies (other than the image quality from the M9 is great), so I don't know why you're in such a huff about it,  but you obviously are.

You have accused me once already of saying something that I did not say and are doing it again in this thread.  On top of that you are now accusing me of "complete and utter ignorance"?

I think you should look at what was actually written before you go off and attack me again.

[evikne]

On 1/16/2020 at 6:13 PM, ianman said:

Well I wouldn't say that the rendering differences are confined to the colours. If it were the case than I would agree... more or less. I really can't stand spending too much time faffing about on the computer.

I agree. There are probably more differences than just the colors, and these are very difficult to emulate in post processing. 

[Ko.Fe.]

6 hours ago, silverchrome said:

I guess that dig is aimed at me...

Except that I DID NOT  say "nobody cares about the differences between sensors."  

I ACTUALLY said "some people couldn’t give a monkey’s about the sensor [when buying a Leica] and simply want a reliable digital M that they can use their M lenses with.  Big difference. 

In fact, I DID NOT make any reference to the qualities of the CCD at all in any of my replies (other than the image quality from the M9 is great), so I don't know why you're in such a huff about it,  but you obviously are.

You have accused me once already of saying something that I did not say and are doing it again in this thread.  On top of that you are now accusing me of "complete and utter ignorance"?

I think you should look at what was actually written before you go off and attack me again.

I hear you, don't know why but several individuals at LUF cannot read, yet accusing others for something they didn't wrote. Plus, personal attacks. I have person you have quoted in ignore list.

[Archiver]

On 1/17/2020 at 6:19 AM, Ko.Fe. said:

I make my pictures different by the content on them. I don't think it is difference in tastes.

It is principal, maybe. Magnum photog Gueorgui Pinkhassov started iPhone photography with presets and filters. But dumped it all and did it well with iPhone straight images. https://www.magnumphotos.com/events/event/mobile-phone-photography-masterclass-with-gueorgui-pinkhassov-in-beijing/

I don't know necessarily about mobile phone presets and filters, but it is a rare day that I'll go with an image that is straight out of the camera with no adjustment. M9 files don't need too much adjustment beyond a bit of curves, contrast and saturation, unless I've botched the exposure and need to do some heavier processing. But there's still a certain look I want from my images which I dial in by using my own Lightroom preset(s) and then tweak the final output to taste. Depending on the subject matter and lighting in the frame, I might highlight a subject with a dark gradient from the sides, or lighten the subject's face with the Burn tool. The only time I'll go with a 'straight' image is one shot on film. But even then, it has already been tweaked by my lab guy who knows what I like, and I use lenses and film stock that have the desired base.

[Ko.Fe.]

6 hours ago, Archiver said:

I don't know necessarily about mobile phone presets and filters, but it is a rare day that I'll go with an image that is straight out of the camera with no adjustment. M9 files don't need too much adjustment beyond a bit of curves, contrast and saturation, unless I've botched the exposure and need to do some heavier processing. But there's still a certain look I want from my images which I dial in by using my own Lightroom preset(s) and then tweak the final output to taste. Depending on the subject matter and lighting in the frame, I might highlight a subject with a dark gradient from the sides, or lighten the subject's face with the Burn tool. The only time I'll go with a 'straight' image is one shot on film. But even then, it has already been tweaked by my lab guy who knows what I like, and I use lenses and film stock that have the desired base.

To me presets are like fast food and adding thai sauce on it doesn't change its repetitive look. 

More I take pictures with M-E more I realize how something has changed after sensor change. I'm not impressed how images are rendered. And post processing is just lipstick on the pig. I just like the process of taking pictures with digital M and RF lenses for now....

M10  is smaller camera with bigger VF, it is good. Maybe one day....

[otto.f]

Now that I see this review, I am once again happy I kept my M9 and sold my M10. Kodachrome 25 vs. Kodak Elitechrome 200, that ‘s my conclusion. 

[JimmyCheng]

Well, here’s my story.

I purchased an M 240 back in 2016 as my first digital Leica, I was thrilled by this beauty and the image it was able to produce, until I saw someone posted m9 images and I went deep into this ccd vs cmos debate. There are claims that the difference was not humanly distinguishable and there are evidences. Yet to me, the difference is obvious enough that I swapped my 240 for an m-e, which I used for about half a year. As I was still at a phase where camera speed and iso were important to me and finally I cannot stand the sluggish m-e and its not so charming appearance, and pull the trigger on a black m10p.

The m10 was revolutionary for me coming from an almost 10 year old camera, I really enjoyed the faster processor and brighter viewfinder as well as the more subdued shutter sound. As a gear, it is highly desirable, yet, as a creative tool, I found myself being trapped in this seemingly perfect light box.

one day a friend of mine showed me his Silver chrome m9p, such a beauty even after all these years, yet the images, when I looked at the files (admittedly he’s a better photographer than I ever am), I was literally shocked. For all theses years, this lush and distinctive look is what I’ve been after. Without a second thought I traded my m10p for a near mint m9p in silver chrome with replaced ccd and I have been using it ever since. I can never part with it. I might acquire an M11 or 12 in the future, but this unique ccd digital Leica I will keep for as long as I can. Honestly, I think this is the last digital Leica that is even meaningful, because of its unique sensor. We have smart phones and other lightweight and small camera options which produces amazing pictures, some even offer rangefinder experience for much less money. To me, I would rather invest in a proper mirrorless for other shooting scenarios than a digital m.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by JimmyCheng

[otto.f]

55 minutes ago, JimmyCheng said:

not humanly distinguishable

You’re not human, like me, join the club. You do write it down very nice. But trading in an M10P for an M9P, that’s quite a loss of money! With closed wallets?

Edited March 5, 2020 by otto.f

[ianman]

1 hour ago, JimmyCheng said:

 I was literally shocked. For all theses years, this lush and distinctive look is what I’ve been after.

Why couldn't you get this lush and distinctive look with your M-E? AFAIK it's exactly the same as an M9 and M9-P.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[otto.f]

It has a grey anthracite paint finish