M10-P or M10-D (M240 user)

[chasdfg]

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Hi all

I shoot streets and causal portraits. Whether at home or when travelling I just bring one lens and one camera out. I don't pixel peep, I don't care too much about sharpness, rich colours, extensive dynamic range etc. I'm not a very technical photographer. I just want to get the shot and capture the moment - camera shake doesn't ruin a shot for me. I shoot from the hip about a third of the time. I do rely on live view a little as a focusing aid every now and then. I rarely use the EVF on my M240. 

I've been using an M240 for 5 years - it is brassed all over and has shot over 30,000 frames. Now I feel it's time to upgrade to a new camera and I have in mind the M10-P or M10-D. I'm hoping with some background info you could help me decide between the two twins, if I do make a new purchase at all.

A new camera

This is a big decision for me because it's my first camera purchase in 5 years, so I feel it has to be worthwhile. The last thing I want to do is plonk money on a new camera only to feel...underwhelmed. Over the past 5 years, every time I've wanted to purchase a camera I'd first use that budget to purchase a lens on my wish-list. The Q, SL, M9M, M246, M-D 262, M10-P and M10-D have all caught my eye but a subsequent camera purchase has thus far been put off. I do wish my M240 had an iso dial and maybe 1 or 2 stops better high iso performance, but that's about it. Wouldn't say no to a quieter shutter and slimmer body though. Having put off a new camera purchase several times over the past few years, I now have all the lenses I could ever wish to shoot with (sure there are some lenses which unobtainable or too hard to justify, but let's leave them out). 

Which is why my attentions have turned to a camera purchase. When I purchased the M240, I told myself my target was to use it till the M11-P came out. I had decided quite early on that I wanted my next new M to be a P variant ("discrete"). When the M10P was announced, many things appealed to me - the quiet shutter, iso dial, slimmer body. But the sensor didn't seem like a big enough jump to upgrade to. However over the weekend I did a speculative roadmap about the M11 based on the current Leica timelines and it occurred to me that the M11 would come within the next 10 to 16 months, and the P variant 18 to 24 months thereafter (soonest being Mid-2022). Throw in a couple of months of availability bottlenecks and the M11-P is essentially 2.5 to 3 years away. I know the M11-P will likely contain the physical upgrades I want (quieter shutter, ISO dial, slimmer body) as well as better sensor performance over the M10 (1 to 2 stops higher ISO performance, or more, as well as better dynamic range)...but I realised I wasn't willing to wait 3 years for my next M. I also realised that whatever I wanted on my next M could be had in an M10-P (though a bigger improvement in relation to sensor performance is likely with the M11/M11-P).

Choice between the twins

I did consider the M-D 262 and I see its appeal. First of all if I wanted a screenless camera, this would be the cheaper option. It shares batteries and thumbs up grips as my M240. The sensor is a know quantity to me. The body is no frills - no wifi, no movie mode, no nothing. It is purely a camera and I see the appeal of this. However I also do want more improvements all round, and I feel an M10-D or M10-P might give me that, especially if it's my first new camera in 5 years.

My current view is that the M10-P is a far less convincing upgrade than the M10-D. The M10-P does everything the M240 does, incrementally better. But the M10-D does that, and more - it forces me to shoot differently and be more mindful of when I press the shutter. This coupled with the fact I'm keeping my M240 means I'm inclined to get an M10-D instead. 

Question: More generally, do you feel that the M10/M10P/M10D has made big enough improvements to your shooting experience? What are the feature(s) you value most over your previous M camera?

Curious to hear your thoughts on the M10-P vs M10-D dilemma based on the context above as well, and thank you in advance.

[andyturk]

41 minutes ago, chasdfg said:

... the M10-D [...] forces me to shoot differently and be more mindful of when I press the shutter. This coupled with the fact I'm keeping my M240 means I'm inclined to get an M10-D instead.

Sounds like you have your decision already.

IMO, the M10-D is kind of a silly choice. I love the thumb-rest lever, but removing the LCD forces you to use the frustratingly poor WiFi/mobile app interface for changing camera settings. The dial on the back of the -D is taped up by some people because it's too loose, and has frozen in place for others.

[digger1914]

I have made the move from 240 to M10-P, and love it.  I will probably get howled at here, but I do not get the D.  If you feel chimping is a sin, you can simply turn off review.  That way you get the best of both worlds, as you will have access to the full menu on camera, and can make any adjustments you want on the fly.

I have considered the idea of the mindset of film and selective shooting and that does appeal to me, so I am in the process of getting an MP, so I would have to change my thoughts away from "digital film is free", and look forward to it.

[T25UFO]

I won't howl - just take a slightly different view.  Yes, it's easy to dismiss the D and for some people it will never make sense.  Let's face it, it's not for the majority, but for some of us (me included) it's an utterly brilliant camera.  I've given up trying to explain its appeal - most of my photo friends don't get the rangefinder concept let alone a rangefinder that doesn't have a rear screen but does have a fake wind on leaver!

In terms of my upgrade path, I went from M8 to M9 to M240 to MD 262 to M10.  Might seem like a costly process, but not so bad over a 14 year period and I never sold any Leica glass.  Why didn't I keep the MD 262?  Well the M10's improved viewfinder helped my ageing eyes to focus, but there was something intangible that I missed, so when the M10-D came out I couldn't resist.  Now, I couldn't be happier.

Another factor: I use glasses for close up work, reading etc, but not for taking photographs, so if I wanted to check focus on a rear LCD I would have to put my glasses on, then take them off again for the next photo.  Seemed rather pointless.  I agree the Fotos App is too slow, but then it's too slow with all the cameras and it will improve over time.  Actually, I rarely use it, as I don't change camera settings that much. 

Hardware problems?  My MD 262 had a strange fault right out of the box - set the ISO to 800 and the actual setting was 6400, while all other ISO settings were correct, but that was fixed under warranty.  I've had no problems whatsoever with the rear dial of the M10-D.  I guess these odd problems occur from time to time, but they are very much in the minority and shouldn't dictate choice.

Whatever you choose, P or D, I'm sure you'll be very happy.

[Anika]

my thoughts:

If you "want" to use the M, then the M10-D is the best way to go.

If you "have to" use the M, then take the M-10 (P).

[poli]

No howling from me, each to their own. The only thing I do notice that people mentioning  the disadvantages of the D or m-d don’t own or never owned a digital camera without a screen. To me it seems you already made your choice. Deep down you want to try a D.😉

Like T25UFO i also moved from a m-d to the M10-D. My eyes are still ok, but I do also like the slightly improved viewfinder. and the thinner form factor.  Also I enjoy the thumbrest. I do not have problems with the app. I hardly  change settings of the camera. I don’t think you need to.
I do now and then download a photo. Which works fine. The results are good. I do notice the better sensor esp I like b&w better out of the m10-d.   I did however prefer the iso dial of the older m-d and the longer battery life. Apart from that the new D is a bit better.  

[Rob L]

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I had an M240-P and an MD and loved them both. Now I have two M10s and can't see any value in paying more than the $4500 that it takes to buy one used today in mint condition.

[Guest]

Hello chasdfg, firstly I have to say that I really do like my M10-D a lot despite some quibbles I have with it's practical design, but I would not have bought it if I didn't already own a regular M10 because I feel that there are occasions when a LCD screen is really useful and anyway just because there's a screen on the M10/M10P it doesn't mean you can't ignore it and just pretend that it's not there like on a M10D, of course you can. The M10-D relies to a varying extent on the utilisation of the WiFi connection and that's it's Achilles heel, it's really rubbish and even more so when you compare that function to other camera manufacturers, i.e.: Panasonic etc etc . You can ignore it as I suspect many M10-D users do after they've settled on the camera set-up that suits their work mode, but to rely on it to replace the LCD on the M10/M10-P for image review it will disappoint and frustrate. Also personally I find the use of the EVF 020 a bit awkward and not really of much use to me so for wide angle lens work I utilise a clip-on OVF finder, ( Leica's 21-24-28 variable OVF). In regards to it's present firmware the M10-D also feels kinda "forgotten" and at a dead end in regards to further firmware features/tools although Leica has told me personally that isn't the case I feel that there should/could be more that can be done in regards to offering more controls "on camera" than via Fotos, making some use for instance of the thumb wheel that at this time only controls date/time setting with the EVF....that's a waste.

Anyway, the big plus side of the MD-10 is that once you've got it setup to suit the way you want to shoot it is a wonderful camera in the hand and the freedom from a LCD screen is either something you get, or you don't.......The same great handling goes for the M10/M10-P as well of course.....and by the way both the M10-D and the M10-P have the newer quieter shutter, though to be honest as much as I like the quietness of the M10-D's shutter I have no problems with the regular M10's, it's fine.

In your case you seem to be very happy with your experiences with the M240, ( I was too but I sold it to help buy the M10-D ), so if there's nothing wrong with it have you considered keeping it and buying a MD-262? You could share batteries, both cameras would compliment each other very well in terms of handling and output and you'd have the bonus of not being frustrated with Foto's and the camera's inane WiFi set-up, you could save a bundle too!

Good luck with whatever you do decide......

 

[jakontil]

I have the m10 before switching to m10-D and couldnt be happier
 

love the idea without the screen, it’s different feelings than just turn off the review, wifi is a good addition when needed

plain and simple

 

the only reason i also got the m10-p bcoz it was a safari

[chasdfg]

Hi all and thank you for the food for thought. I actually have some gripes about the M10-D. I believe there are workarounds so I'll air my thoughts here and hope to hear from the users:

1) I read the Visoflex GPS module cannot be turned off - is this right? How is the battery drain with Visoflex + GPS on (is there much of a difference at all?)  I believe this is a small issue as I would have 2 batteries with me (1 spare), and adjusting to the smaller battery capacity is just part and parcel of shooting with an M10 (vs M240). I intend to use the camera as a second body for the occasional paid shoot I do, with the Visoflex mounted.

2) I've watched numerous videos of the M10-D and fotos app. I understand that the full M10 menu is not available in the app. I shall not hold out the hope that the app will introduce more features. One feature I'm quite reliant on on the M240 is dust detection as I find it's rather accurate and useful. If the full menu on the M10-D fotos app isn't available, I suppose a workaround is shooting a white wall at f22 and inspect the picture very closely. More tedious, but that is essentially what the dust detection does anyway.

3) I handled the camera in a store and the on/off switch is in a rather unnatural position. Likewise the lever is a bit of a stretch to make use of and I found the camera more natural to hold without the lever out (as a thumb rest). I think this is just a matter of adapting to the camera.

4) The dials - I know every camera will have issues, and users will report them, vent and try to find a solution. I've read of jammed dials and loose dials. Not to fear monger or make an issue out of nothing, but my concern is that loose dials or jammed dials are just a matter of time and are another point of failure (compared to buttons and an LCD, which Leica has done for a good 14 years now). Some users report no issues after a year of ownership, so this may be a non-issue. 

Another question - how quick is the battery drain if one used the fotos app? I don't intend to use it for prolonged periods.

I have put aside the thought of an M-D 262 at the moment because I want to use this camera for travel, and for longer trips it would be nice to review my photos at the end of each day. I don't bring a laptop and travel light, so being able to view them on the fotos app is useful (even if its laggy and drains the battery quicker). Also, live-view via the app is useful for checking focus or RF alignment.

Regarding M10D vs M10P, my heart wants the M10-D, my brain tells me the safe choice is the P.  But the M10-D is a challenge, and changes the shooting experience and looks better too...

I did consider holding out to see what Leica might be up to after the M10M comes out (such as a high res M?). Nevertheless the M10D/P's physical improvements would be hard to upgrade on - it's already film M thickness, has an ISO dial and a very quiet shutter. 24MP is plenty for me (I export JPEGS at 12mp) and the sensor is a small but sufficient step up over my M240 as it is. Maybe the M10R or M11 will introduce the lever as a standard feature, or further improve the rangefinder magnification/clarity/accuracy, and the sensor will no doubt be improved in some ways and there might be the introduction of an electronic shutter option..in any case all speculation. I feel the M11-D will have bigger changes in terms of layout, and I would love for the on/off switch to revert to the shutter button, but that camera is a long way away and again that's speculation and I digress.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by chasdfg

[AndreasG]

My experience is:

1) The Visoflex module shuts off after approx. 1min (and the shutter closes too), that means, the display is off, but I am not sure that the remaining electronics inside the Visoflex are off too. Anyway, use of the Visoflex drains the battery substantially. A spare battery is a must!

2) Definitely the app does not offer the same functionality as the M10-P display. To detect dust on the sensor, you described well how to do - white wall photo with closed aperture (I do it against the blue sky...), but also the Visoflex can do this with closed aperture and neutral background.

3) Well, the switch, seems, the designer did not follow the old rule "form follows function"......  I accept the present design, but it is not very functional compared with other Leica cameras.

4) Dials - work well with my M10-D, no trouble within the first year

Summary: Coming from the M6 and M4-P world for 30plus years, the M10-D was the right decision for me one year ago, I do not regret the choice - accepting some shortcomings - and the camera enables me to make decent photos.

[kaisernchen]

The Leica M10/M10-P and M10-D are basically the same camera except very minor difference in shooting.  I enjoy using M10 and later added the M10-D and then M10-D became m y most frequent use Leica M camera.  The shooting of M10/M10-P and M10-D is the same except one would like to constantly review the shoot, which I don't.  The M10-D is a very dependable camera that I shoot lots of images with and I do wish the viewfinder is hybrid to allow more precise focusing/frame for close objects or using 21/24 and 75/90/135 lenses - which I use Visoflex as a solution.  The Leica Visoflex Typ 020 is useful for what it is and terrible viewing experience when comparing to other models - ie. SL601/Q2/SL 2 - perhaps Leica needs to address the Visoflex issue for the future M cameras.

I do not feel the immersion of rear screen is a problem because all the basic setting can be set via Leica Fotos and really no need to change often as other basic setting can be easily adjusted as shooting goes and to avoid missing critical moment I have my M10-D constantly set to continuous mode since last February 2019, almost a year ago, without changing it again. I still keep my original M10 as it has a little louder shutter sound so that when shooting portraiture in a somewhat noisy area that the person in front of camera knows the shoot is going.  The quiet shutter on M10-P did not appeal to me but as M10-D inherited the shutter mechanism from M10-P so I take it as is, the quiet shutter is fine and useful more often than not but the M10 is not that loud.  

I assume most die-hard M users will go strike if Leica M is to adapt an built-in EVF which I will not object, in fact welcome it, providing that the EVF quality is akin to SL2.  It will still work with all the classic lenses and free from mechanical tolerance and calibration for good. 

I started to use M10-D since January 2019 and it is about a year now, my M10-D image journal - https://www.kaisernchen.com/post/leica-m10-d-diary 

 

Regards, K 

[SiOnara]

I had the P and then the D. The D for me is perfect. I don’t use the screen, I like the feeling of shooting without it. 
 

For transferring files I just pop my SD Card into my Mac or IPad Pro. Sometimes I use my Wifi on my phone to transfer files when needed but that’s only now and then. The connection is a little slow (about 30seconds to connect) but it’s stable. 
 

I set the basic shooting style of the camera in the app when I got it and haven’t touched it since then.
 

You need to decide which shooting style suites you. Both cameras are amazing M’s. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by SiOnara

[IkarusJohn]

When I was in the depths of chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant coming on for 2 years ago, I emailed Stefan Daniel suggesting a D version of the M10.  I had owned the M60, and loved its purity of conception (can’t now remember why I sold it).  Stefan responded - great idea.  I asked for WiFi and EVF compatibility, and that’s ultimately what came.  The wind-on lever was a surprise I quickly came to accept.

In relation to the issues you raise, I don’t use the EVF that often as I see the M10-D as a camera to use at its most basic, with the excellent OVF.  The EVF is there when I need it, but that’s not often (a nice to have).  I only use the Fotos App if I want to review my photos over a beer at the end of a day.  Intuitively, with WiFi off and no EVF, battery drain is less of an issue.  I always carry a spare battery.

No problems with dials or any of the other things raised above.  My camera has worked without a hitch.

What would I do in your shoes?  Keep using the M(240) until it dies.  

What are my reservations about the M10-D?  I wish it was a little more stripped back like the M60 (less buttons and dials), and yes I would prefer the on/off button to be a collar around the shutter release, but in reality this isn’t an issue.  I turn it on and leave it on.

You either get the LCD-less concept or you don't (much like the monochrome cameras) - I wouldn’t bother trying to explain it to the naysayers.  Limiting?  Not at all.  If you have even used film, you will find the M10-D liberating compared to the complexity of so many other cameras which do what is possible with the electronics, rather than what you actually need.

[T25UFO]

One more comment on M10-D and the Fotos App.  

It does allow you to use the D in a tethered status, viewing photos as they are taken.  Better on an iPad Pro than an iPhone.  It doesn't work like that with the Q2 - once the Q2 is connected you can view (and download) photos on the card, but can't continue taking more photos in a conventional way - only use your phone as a remote.  So that's one plus point for combining Fotos with the M10-D; of course, every plus comes with a minus and the minus point is battery drain.