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Should I buy a copy of the Summicron-S 100mm?


geetee1972

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Hi Greg,

I am firmly in the try it and buy it camp. 

The perspective - focal length - of this lens seems to be specially made for the kind of portraits you do, including the landscape work that you showed. There is a kind of honesty, or real-ness if you wanna call it that, that the perspective of the 100mm provides in combination with the sensor the size of our S cameras that corresponds with the way we humans see our environment. It's hard to express, but I sense this same kind of approach to reality in your work.

I don't know exactly what it is, but there seems to be some kind of special siren call coming from the Summicron-S 100mm. Perhaps it's the focal length, perhaps it's the fact that it's the fastest lens in the S-line and I guess it's a bit of both. But anyway, I think it has some kind of magic attraction which may very well have been started by Leica themselves when they brought this lens to the market some five years ago.

Here's what Leica said in the release notes in August 2014:

Today, Leica Camera has announced the new Leica Summicron-S 100mm f/2 ASPH, equivalent to an 80mm lens in the 35mm camera system. This looks like it could be one of the more interesting lenses in the Leica S-System lineup. One could informally call it the "Noctilux for the Leica S-System" and we expect it to render the "Leica look" at its finest. It's the fastest S lens available; the only Summicron, and in fact is now one of the fastest medium format telephoto lenses available today. With it's minimum focus distance of 0.7 meters (28 inches) it will also work well as a macro lens. At 910 grams in weight, it is a bit lighter than the Leica Summarit-S 35mm f/2.5 ASPH (930 grams) which is a lens we've never had a problem hand-holding. Without the lens hood attached the overall length is 102mm (4 inches) which falls in between the length of the 35mm (122mm) and the S-70mm (93mm).

Leica Camera is pleased to introduce the Leica Summicron-S 100mm f/2 ASPH, a new addition to the Leica S-System. The lens is ideal for portrait, beauty, landscapes, and available light photography and corresponds to an 80mm lens in the 35mm system with a natural-looking perspective. The sophisticated lens engineering is optimized for perfect skin tones while maintaining the highest level of brilliance.

The Leica Summicron-S 100mm f/2 ASPH uses a sophisticated design where a total of 7 lens elements are used to achieve the highest optical performance. This meets the high expectations of the Leica S-System users of a professional tool.

There are three lens elements of glass with anomalous partial dispersion - another is made of high-refraction extra low dispersion glass for correction of chromatic aberrations. One double aspherical lens element minimizes monochromatic aberrations. A floating element moves independently to ensure the close range imaging capability of the lens.

The very elaborate construction is designed for maximum contrast performance even at full aperture, and at the nearest focusing distance keeps the lens free from artifacts. Chromatic aberrations are corrected to an absolute maximum.

The stable lens body and the perfect seal against dust and splash water guarantee durability and reliability.


While we're on the subject, I highlighted the section about skintones because I have always wondered how this works. Did they make the lens less contrasty around skin tone frequencies? Anyone know how this is done?

Edited by peterv
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You guys!

The order has been placed - there is no box, no AF motor replacement and the lens hood that it is shipping with is off a 30/35/45mm lens but then the second hand price is about £500 less than the last time one of these came up on the second hand market.

I'll post back the results.

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7 hours ago, peterv said:


While we're on the subject, I highlighted the section about skintones because I have always wondered how this works. Did they make the lens less contrasty around skin tone frequencies? Anyone know how this is done?

Call me skeptical, but I have learned that it is better not to focus on anything written in Leica press releases (or any other companies). I got burned spending full price of the 30-90mm. I bought it because it was marketed as being "as good as the primes". Upon testing it, it was soft in the corners and edges at every aperture...nothing like the primes. I was dissatisfied with it to the extent that I went in person to Solms, where they tried to improve it, but said in no uncertain terms that it was not, in fact, as good as the primes. Perhaps I did not express it so much at the time, as they were very kind to me in person, but I was really angry. Now I know that the only thing I can trust is my own eyes. I have seen no evidence that the 100mm has any better skin tones than any other S lens. I have never seen a photographer do any meaningful comparison either. I suspect it is just boilerplate marketing gibberish. They ask a technician, so what is this lens good for? And she or he responds, "well, it is good for portraits..." and then they think of something to say about it.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I got burned spending full price of the 30-90mm. I bought it because it was marketed as being "as good as the primes". Upon testing it, it was soft in the corners and edges at every aperture...nothing like the primes. 

As I 'only' paid £2,500 for my 30-90mm I was a little forgiving - at first - then I looked back on photos taken with the Pentax D-FA 28-45mm when I had a 645Z and it's definitely not an £8,700 lens! Heck, even my £400 Pentax 645 FA 33-55mm is a better performer in the corners!!! 🤬

My 30-90mm is with Leica at the moment having its AF motor replaced but I also included an SD card showing them how blurry its corners are (like motion blur but on buildings!). I'm hoping that they can tweak it to make it perform better. If they can't then I guess I'll sell it on. It's a shame, as, apart from its weight, it's a nice and compact lens - at least compared to the Hasselblad HCD 35-90mm!! 

Edited by Sarnian
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Yup, the Pentax lens was made for a much larger image circle, so it stands to reason that the corners are better, I would not be surprised if a good copy of the 30–90mm does very well on an SL. Having said that, I really hope they can fine-tune your lens in such a way that the corners on an S are more than acceptable and as sharp as one would imagine such an expensive zoom lens to be.

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Yes, that is how it is done normally, the way I understand. Perhaps they were giving too much attention to the compactness of the lens and sacrificed the corner sharpness. Like Stuart says, who knows? I sometimes really wish people like Peter Karbe could participate in these threads and teach us a few things about the design choices.

Edited by peterv
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3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Now I know that the only thing I can trust is my own eyes.

Absolutely!

 

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I have seen no evidence that the 100mm has any better skin tones than any other S lens. I have never seen a photographer do any meaningful comparison either.

Neither have I, that would be a really interesting test. Are you familiar with the work of Magnum photographer Bruce Gilden? He made these brutally sharp streetportraits in the USA on an S with the 120mm. I cannot help thinking that the 100mm would have made more friendly portraits than the 120mm that he used. (the direct frontal flashlight he used certainly played a big part in the sharpness of these portraits, which is kind of his hallmark)

 

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

They ask a technician, so what is this lens good for? And she or he responds, "well, it is good for portraits..." and then they think of something to say about it.

I doubt that, I really believe there is more integrity to the design and that Leica really tried somehow to make a 'people-lens' and that marketing chose to emphasise this design decision because there is some truth and merit in it.

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I am sure you are right. Just talking about the 30-90 got me a bit agitated. I still have it because it is worth so much less than I bought it for. I am basically a living experiment of the sunken cost fallacy. That said, it does quite well on the S1. Not as well as the primes, but it is far more useful on the S1 for me than it was on the S006, even though big and heavy. It is the only zoom lens I own in any system, so it can serve that duty on 35mm at least. Everything about the lens is great as long as it is cropped in a bit (or in a composition where the edges don't matter).

Regarding the 100mm, I am not questioning the integrity of the designers or even the marketers. I am sure that the lens designers did the best job they could to make the lens excellent at the main use they felt it would see -- portraiture. I just happen to doubt that the skin tones are any better. The reason I doubt it is that Leica has tried to color match and manage the look of the S lenses so they do not vary much over the different focal lengths. I am sure part of this was done with the Thalia cinema lenses in mind, but also because they wanted it to be a professional system where everything matched very well, differing mostly by focal length. I know the 100mm is a bit on its own, but I doubt that they would substantially alter the S lens house look to achieve this. My guess is that when the discussion occurred for the marketers about the design goals and purpose of the lens, they probably mentioned skin tones being important. Again, I have zero evidence of this, it is just a feeling. I think the marketing people are put in a position to sell and describe the lenses, and it is surely a difficult job as every new Leica lens has to be more superlative than the last...they certainly cannot say of the 100mm "well, it is half a stop faster than the 70mm and 120mm, and right between the two in focal length....it is smaller because we decided you can't buy this portrait lens with a central shutter. It is sharp and has nice bokeh and a natural perspective.)" What is the "highest level of brilliance" mean anyway? haha

Edited by Stuart Richardson
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My S zoom was pretty good so is another copy I tested in Leica store SF. I find for landscape, I most shoot f11, the corner is not as crisp as prime but not bad compare to any other zoom I used. There is must be copy variation or expectation for aperture before f8 is too high? 

However, I can't bare the size of it. The biggest problem is slow aperture with OVF camera, and dont even think about put CPL on it unless you are on tripod. With SL2's EVF now, it might be a workable solution however for the size and price, I am sure all three: Leica, Panasonic and Sigma can do decent job to make it hard to justify. 

I sold it at big loss but no regret at all. Half of the joy of using S system is OVF with S prime glass. For zoom like this, I just use a different system. 

100cron has more blur at the same reproduction ratio compare 120. However, 120 has more smoother bokeh actually. I love both. before my last service, the focus ring is a little sticky on my 100cron. Now Leica made it as smooth as I can dream for AF lens like this and consider it focus accurate finally on my S007, this become my never sell lens in my bag. I just love the focal length which I can crop for long and stitch for short to get 50mm FF focal length. 

However, again I don't recommend it given the fact that people mostly use AF for it and also the history of mine over different body as well as other reports. 

I look forward to see how it perform in OP's setup. 

 

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I've just received the lens and given it quick test. The focus seems to be just fine but at distances of 3m+  the results are a touch soft at f/2. At 1m the results are pin sharp. It's not that longer distances results in less capable focus as there is no evidence of either front or back focus, so the logical conclusion is that the lens' resolving capabilities are less at longer distances than shorter ones. This is precisely the same result I had with the Hasselblad HC100 except to a much greater degree. The results of that lens at 3m+ wide open were unusable. The results with the Summicron-S are still very usable.

The AF motor sounds a bit graunchy as well, though this could just be how it is supposed to be. All the AF motors in S lenses are quite agricultural.

 

Edited by geetee1972
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1 hour ago, geetee1972 said:

I've just received the lens and given it quick test. The focus seems to be just fine but at distances of 3m+  the results are a touch soft at f/2. At 1m the results are pin sharp. It's not that longer distances results in less capable focus as there is no evidence of either front or back focus, so the logical conclusion is that the lens' resolving capabilities are less at longer distances than shorter ones. This is precisely the same result I had with the Hasselblad HC100 except to a much greater degree. The results of that lens at 3m+ wide open were unusable. The results with the Summicron-S are still very usable.

The AF motor sounds a bit graunchy as well, though this could just be how it is supposed to be. All the AF motors in S lenses are quite agricultural.

 

Greg, this sounds not a good news. Most of lens other than a few old macro will getting sharper once you increase distance. 100cron is no exception. If you look Leica 100cron MTF, it is sharper at infinity then close distance. 
your copy or combo with your S007 copy has the same issue I reported early. 
 

it is very easy to verify. Put it on tripod, having a big well defined target, OVF focus first, LCD AF next, and manual focus with LV last. I’d expect you will see it has focus error with OVF focus. LCD AF and manual are about the same as it use On sensor Contrast detection focus then phase detection focus OVF based AF. 
 

if my experience is correct, even within 1M which is very close IMO(based on your images from Flickr and here, you will most likely use it from 1M to 3M) your result won’t be consistent for combo like these. Just focus error never really bad with very close distance of 100cron. The long distance will magnify the issue. 
 

I suggest you do something early than late. 

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On 1/15/2020 at 4:14 PM, geetee1972 said:

I've just received the lens and given it quick test. The focus seems to be just fine but at distances of 3m+  the results are a touch soft at f/2. At 1m the results are pin sharp. It's not that longer distances results in less capable focus as there is no evidence of either front or back focus, so the logical conclusion is that the lens' resolving capabilities are less at longer distances than shorter ones. This is precisely the same result I had with the Hasselblad HC100 except to a much greater degree. The results of that lens at 3m+ wide open were unusable. The results with the Summicron-S are still very usable.

The AF motor sounds a bit graunchy as well, though this could just be how it is supposed to be. All the AF motors in S lenses are quite agricultural.

 

I can not replicate your findings with the HC100. Can you rule out a user error or body issue?

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14 hours ago, Photon42 said:

I can not replicate your findings with the HC100. Can you rule out a user error or body issue?

I can't actually and to be honest the problems i was having with it were while using it on a loan camera body. When I bought the lens I tested it on my own S, albeit in a limited capacity. the folloing images were taken with my body: 

Natalie by Greg Turner, on Flickr

Oct 02 2019 1 by Greg Turner, on Flickr

These were made outside the shop with a passer by but convinced me to buy the lens.

This was made with the loan camera body:

Earle by Greg Turner, on Flickr

I think we can agree these examples are pin sharp. However, these were also taken with the loan body and it's very obviously back focused (is back focused behind the subject or is it like long/short sighted where long means you can't see things closer to you?)

347Oct 29 2019 by Greg Turner, on Flickr

 

 

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Well that was easy.

Despite the lack of paperwork, a quick call to Leica UK has established that the Summicron-S lens I have was originally sold via Leica Japan in 2015 and in 2017 it had the AF motor replaced, also via Lecia Japan. It's a well travelled lens but the AF motor issue has been addressed so any noise I hear is what it was designed to do.

I think this makes it a very cheap copy of the lens. Yes it has the hood from a wide angle lens (it's the same as the 45mm and wider lenses) and there's no box but it was only £3099.

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