FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 8, 2020 Share #101 Posted January 8, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 5 minutes ago, thighslapper said: ETTR is not a bunch of bull ..... it's just that the rationale usually used to justify it is wrong ..... and it doesn't apply in all situations. http://www.photonstophotos.net/Emil Martinec/noise-p3.html This and the preceding and following pages go into all this business quite exhaustively. I had not realised just how complicated and numerous the factors were involved in trying to achieve good image quality fro a sensor ...... True. But I think a lot of people implemented it incorrectly and *ETTL* kind of took on a life of it's own that didn't match the original intent. I was talking about this with a Leica Ambassador recently and he basically told me I WAS doing ETTR just descrbing it a different way. He may be right (he is right) but what I see from some of the ETTR crowd is to slam the histogram to the right and then expect everything to be there "because, the histogram is from a JPEG and the raw file has more latitude" or because "there's more data available on the right side of the histogram"! But they didn't consider how much or whether it was important information or not or what they were clipping to get the histogram over there. I had one particularly knowledgeable guy at a wedding (they come out at weddings!!) tell me that as long as I had two channels unclipped that Lightroom would sort out the colours for me?? Starting a topic on ETTR gets about the same amount of stupid responses as starting one on equivalence or DoF. So I choose to call it "protect the highlights" (patent pending) to avoid the confusion that became ETTR. Gordon 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 8, 2020 Posted January 8, 2020 Hi FlashGordonPhotography, Take a look here SL2 vs. SL feedback. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted January 9, 2020 Share #102 Posted January 9, 2020 1 hour ago, thighslapper said: ETTR is not a bunch of bull ..... it's just that the rationale usually used to justify it is wrong ..... and it doesn't apply in all situations. His title is intentionally provocative, but I think he clarifies the possible concerns. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 9, 2020 Share #103 Posted January 9, 2020 vor 5 Stunden schrieb Aktenschrank: What I have found in my personal (unscientific but persistent:) tests is that ISO 50 has just a tad more usable DR. About 1/3-2/3 of a stop when underexposed accordingly. One needs to underexpose the ISO 50 shot by about 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop to get the same highlight recoverability as ISO 100, then lift the overall exposure by the same amount in post. This will result in the same highlight recoverability with the ISO 50 file, but slightly cleaner shadows. Now, the difference is not that big and, just like probably many on this thread, I´m still debating if it's worth even doing😀 Please, test the WB in low-light high contrast scenes, for underexposed ISO 50 shots and for ETTRed ISO 100 ones. Underexposed pictures tend to get a blue tint as exposure is lifted in post. It’s even worse with the S1R. See #32, #33, #34 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/303396-leica-sl2-dynamic-range/page/2/#comments. But even with the SL2, bluish tint on the left side of the picture. It can’t be fixed with the WB sliders. Better to overexpose slightly in low-light high contrast scenes and, therefore, better to shoot at ISO 100 in those situations, IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
caissa Posted January 10, 2020 Share #104 Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) Yes, simply stay within the predefined limits, unless you have a very good reason to go astray. (That’s why you bought a Leica.) Seriously. Leica tries to make life easy for the non-specialist. But I do not really know what to think of EFCS. Should it be there or not ? Edited January 10, 2020 by caissa Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aktenschrank Posted January 10, 2020 Share #105 Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 4:06 AM, Chaemono said: Please, test the WB in low-light high contrast scenes, for underexposed ISO 50 shots and for ETTRed ISO 100 ones. I think I was not precise in my writing. I did mean underexposed ISO 50 relative to whatever exposure is chosen to be the ideal one. Here's an example: ISO 100: 1 sec, f8 (lets say for the sake of the example that this is "ETTR´d") ISO 50: 1.3 sec f8 (this is 2/3 of a stop underexposed relative to the above) If you lift the exposure of the second shot by 2/3 in post + recovering highlights, based on my personal tests, you get slightly cleaner shadows and the same highlight recoverability with the same overall image "brightness". Sometimes I found 1/3 stop relative underexposure to be enough. But as I said, at least to my eyes the difference in shadow noise are slight and I will probably only do this if I really have the time or am slightly bored behind the tripod😀 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 16, 2020 Share #106 Posted January 16, 2020 I did these test shots. Exposure difference between the ISO 50 and ISO 100 picture is one stop. Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/ SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL, exposed to protect highlights. Link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g880875264-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=BN9BDJyfV_wCFZV0XNqEzfOyXyYa3BLH41-jI1bhhAc= Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 50 f/2 @1/80 sec. SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL, ETTR. Link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g569034665-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=1MDVO4-BQm9AQdSAH0kzv2AvIxepBlsRX7vtchGyJDI= ISO 100 f/2 @1/60 sec. Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 50 f/2 @1/80 sec. SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL, ETTR. Link to DNG download here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g569034665-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=1MDVO4-BQm9AQdSAH0kzv2AvIxepBlsRX7vtchGyJDI= ISO 100 f/2 @1/60 sec. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305002-sl2-vs-sl-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=3892187'>More sharing options...
Chaemono Posted January 16, 2020 Share #107 Posted January 16, 2020 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) And now with Exposure +1.5 for ISO 50, +0.51 for ISO 100, Highlights -60 and Shadows +100 for both, no NR, Sharpening +40. The ISO 50 picture shows more shadow noise. Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-tzdLng/ SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL same as above, Exposure +1.5, Highlights -60, Shadows +100, NR 0, Sharpening +40 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 50 SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL same as above, Exposure +0.51, Highlights -60, Shadows +100, NR 0, Sharpening +40 ISO 100 Edited January 16, 2020 by Chaemono Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ISO 50 SL2 + 75 Summicron-SL same as above, Exposure +0.51, Highlights -60, Shadows +100, NR 0, Sharpening +40 ISO 100 ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305002-sl2-vs-sl-feedback/?do=findComment&comment=3892192'>More sharing options...
Aktenschrank Posted January 16, 2020 Share #108 Posted January 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Chaemono said: The ISO 50 picture shows more shadow noise. Which is to be expected, since you underexposed the ISO 50 image 1 1/3 of a stop relative to the ISO 100 image. The DR advantage of ISO 50 is more in the range of 1/3-2/3 of a stop. So if your purpose was to test if ISO 50 shows more dynamic range than ISO 100 your ISO 50 exposure would have had to be for example f2 1/40th, which is 1/3 stop underexposed relative to your ISO 100 exposure. Then you would raise the exposure in post by 1/3 of a stop for the ISO 50 shot, and after that apply your highlights & shadows settings to both images equally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoySmith Posted January 16, 2020 Share #109 Posted January 16, 2020 On 1/8/2020 at 3:40 PM, FlashGordonPhotography said: Several years ago I shifted from ETTR to *protect the highlights*. It's a subtle difference in though process but I have found that exposing the highest tones you need to keep at 245 is an easy way to maximise the amount of data you need to work with. And with modern sensors I only do this in extreme situations. Maybe about 5% of the time. the other 95% I just put the histogram somewhere to the upper end and let it be. Some cameras (I haven't looked at the SL2 yet) allow you to use the zebra patterns to really easily expose to protect the highlights. By PtH (trademark pending )as a though process rather than ETTR I push things a bit less. To me clipping highlights is the devil.... unless it's deliberate. Much like shooting slides but with more to play with. Gordon Gordon, what does “keep at 245” mean ? Part of the problem with ETTR is that one color channel may be blown, but not displayed in the black and white histogram. Roy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 16, 2020 Share #110 Posted January 16, 2020 6 hours ago, RoySmith said: Gordon, what does “keep at 245” mean ? Part of the problem with ETTR is that one color channel may be blown, but not displayed in the black and white histogram. Roy If one were to use a luminance scale with zero being black and 255 being white (like most histograms). I like to keep my important highlights around 245. Some cameras allow you to set this and show a zebra pattern on any part of the image over the set amount before you take the shot as an alternative to using the histogram. Derived from the video side but super useful in stills. On cameras that have this I set my zebra for highlights to 245. Gordon 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2020 Share #111 Posted January 21, 2020 On 1/16/2020 at 2:45 PM, RoySmith said: Gordon, what does “keep at 245” mean ? Part of the problem with ETTR is that one color channel may be blown, but not displayed in the black and white histogram. Roy Doesn't the SL2 offer an RGB histogram? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted January 21, 2020 Share #112 Posted January 21, 2020 22 minutes ago, jaapv said: Doesn't the SL2 offer an RGB histogram? No, it does not 😞. Same as CL and M cameras, AFAIK. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 21, 2020 Share #113 Posted January 21, 2020 1 hour ago, SrMi said: No, it does not 😞. Same as CL and M cameras, AFAIK. I seem to recall the M240 had the option. The M9 certainly has. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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