Dilemma 21mm Super Elmar vs Linhof 617S

[Torontoamateur]

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I have come to a crossroads and need advice.  I will be going to the Grand Canyon at the end of January and want to upgrade my Wideangle capabilities. On one hand adding a Leica 21MM Super Elmar and on the other for the SAME price a mint Linhof Technarama 617s with 90mm Super Angulon XL f/5.6.  I know I can always but the 21mm but at a higher price but the 617S is a one in a decade buy. If I get the 617s I will use B&W and Velvia50 and have it drum scanned  I do have an 11x11 Durst Enlarger.

 

What do I do?? What would you do? H E L P !!!

[Kwesi]

Complete no brainer. BUY THE LINHOF!!!!!

I have the 21 SEM and absolutely love it but you can always buy one later.

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[a.noctilux]

Hello Amateur,

I'd buy the Linhof if I can live with it's size and weight.

Results on film must be over all Leica gears.

At one time I had opportunity to buy the Fuji 617, but when I've hold it and know that I could not carry it comfortably, I didn't buy it.

Four frames on 120 film on Fuji was kind of stretching a bit.

Xpan complete system "replaced" it for me, happy user since then but sometimes, I regret the bigger format 617.

[otto.f]

42 minutes ago, Torontoamateur said:

the 617S is a one in a decade buy

If that’s true, the next question is, is the GrandCanyon trip a once in a lifetime trip? 
Apart from that I want to tell you my view on 6x17, I owned such a camera, the Fuji. I found it marvellous IQ-wise. The practicalities are another thing. The camera is heavy and voluminous, which you can adapt to. The results however are quite special. You are talking about an enlarger so I take it you want to end up with prints, on the wall. The format of 6x17 is not so often used or applicable on a wall in every interior. Also, this may be quite different for images in landscape vs. portrait format. 
If I were you I would not miss this chance for a Linhof 617, but before I go, I would have a plan for the destination of the end results. This would make my photographic work in the GrandCanyon more targeted with more chance of success.

Edited December 30, 2019 by otto.f

[luigi bertolotti]

Just the fact that you consider seriously this alternative, means imho that you must take the Linhof : it's such a specialized item that I suppose you can get at best the kind of pictures (and prints) for it was made : a good 21 mm is nice to have… but you will have several opportunities to have one (new or used, Super Elmar or Elmarit 21, or a CV, or a 18mm...) any time you want, while the Linhof is a rare bird (I admit not to have infos about its mean availability and cost, but take for good your "once in a decade").

As a collateral consideration : I doubt you can achieve similar results (as large prints, of course) from the Linhof and from the Super Elmar "cropped" to 6x17 equivalent : my idea is that, with digital,  panos are better achieved by stitching frames taken with 28/35/50 (*)  (and there are very good specialized software to do); so… the Linhof to 21 is not a real alternative in term of usage. : it is, by chance, an economic equivalent in this moment, simply: if you want a great pano camera for film, you have now a good chance, if you want a 21 for your Leica, that's another matter.

 (*) In my home, I have even a 160x50 print  from a stitch of frames taken with a 90mm

Edited December 30, 2019 by luigi bertolotti

[farnz]

Oh that's an easy one - buy the Linhof 6 x 17.  While it will be cumbersome and guzzle rolls of film if you let it, the main consideration surely must be the quality of the pictures you will make with it rather than its ergonomics owing to the venue and perhaps once in a lifetime opportunity.  I have many many Velvia 50 chrome landscapes that I shot with my Pentax 67 and I still prefer their pictures to those from any other camera I've used.

I hope you will also take a Leica digital camera and a longer focal length lens so that you can also take multiple portrait shots to photomerge, as Luigi has suggested, for a similar aspect ratio and field of view as backup in case of a problem with the Linhof or film.

Pete.

[jkcampbell2]

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If you can pick up a Linhof 617 for the price of an SEM do it! I've had mine for over 15 years and I would never part with it. SEMs will always be available but a deal on a Linhof is to good to pass up. Cheers, jc

[adan]

The short answer - get the Linhof 6x17

The longer answer - these are such completely different devices for completely different approaches to photography that they really can't be compared or substituted for one another. Like asking "Should I go marlin fishing - or take a photo-safari to Antarctica?" Media, format, portability, shooting speed, quality, experience - nothing like one another. The fact they are both "wide" is a fairly thin reed connecting them.

I wouldn't go for the Linhof without a willingness to make a long-term committment to 1) large film and 2) panoramas. It will take more than one trip (probably more like 5 years - or even a lifetime) to really explore and learn what that camera can do. It is something of a one-trick pony - but it is one heck of a trick!

[luigi bertolotti]

Let's see what decides our Canadian friend...  till now our advices are univoque...😎  (and is someway noticeable such an advice in a Leica Forum... 😊... but we are serious people...)

 

btw... > 25 years ago  (in a phase of "big neg is BEST !)  I had a Linhof 70  : excellent prints but quickly discovered that going out with it and 3 lenses, and Rollex, and tripod..  was a terrible experience, so stood with the Rolleiflex 3,5f and sold the Linhof (of course, now I regret... 😉 was a supebly made machine...)  

 

Edited December 31, 2019 by luigi bertolotti

[rsolomon]

bottom line: don’t miss on the marvelous photo opportunity

maybe Both!

Linhof : the opportunity to use this would be (for me) an incredible experience - however do you need to become familiar with it prior to your trip? Will you have that time? Purchasing and then not being able to fully  understand and exploit the Linhof might end with huge disappointment and loss of opportunity 
 

though I have the 24 3.8 I can say this is a marvelous often used lens. if at all possible get both, rent the 21 if needed, again, don’t miss on the marvelous photo opportunity 
 

 

[PCPix]

Linhof, without question!

There is precious little else on this planet that will generate anything more beautiful than a sheet of 6x17 Velvia transparencies shot with a super-angulon on your light table...;-)

[FrozenInTime]

I have gone the other way , selling my Linhof 612PC-II.

For the size I’m printing a M camera ,CL  or even Ricoh GR-III is more than sufficient.

The reduced equipment bulk and weight gets me our to more places and is better for catching fleeting light.

[otto.f]

On 1/1/2020 at 1:42 PM, FrozenInTime said:

catching fleeting light

I think in the Grand Canyon you can just wait for your chances with a blade of grass between your teeth. That’s the Zen of landscape photography. Just like dawn in Bryce Canyon, sleep in the car, set up your thing at 5AM and wait. 

[jdlaing]

3 hours ago, otto.f said:

I think in the Grand Canyon you can just wait for your chances with a blade of grass between your teeth. That’s the Zen of landscape photography. Just like dawn in Bryce Canyon, sleep in the car, set up your thing at 5AM and wait. 

Or 5 PM.

[RexGig0]

What would I do? I doubt that I could build the skills needed to use a Linhof well, by the end of January. Even if I could find a local mentor, the coastal prairie of SE Texas is no place to prepare to shoot canyon country.

On the other hand, a once-in-a-decade deal is a once-in-a-decade deal. Buy the Linhof, and use another wide-angle lens on your M camera, perhaps? Rent? Borrow? Take both cameras on the trip. One of my colleagues borrowed an ultra-wide Canon zoom from me, for a Grand Canyon trip, several years ago.

Edited January 3, 2020 by RexGig0

[David33316]

Hi, not sure where to post this, but, if anyone has interest I have a 617S.

Thank you 

[rpittal]

I have taken my Fujifilm GS617 with a 90mm lens on several China trips (always only take the one lens though, leaving the 180 and 300 home, and also take with my Q). Lots of film too. Definitely slows you down! but worth it. Expensive if you send the film out for developing and scanning though.

[jto555]

On 12/30/2019 at 8:11 PM, Torontoamateur said:

I have come to a crossroads and need advice.  I will be going to the Grand Canyon at the end of January and want to upgrade my Wideangle capabilities. On one hand adding a Leica 21MM Super Elmar and on the other for the SAME price a mint Linhof Technarama 617s with 90mm Super Angulon XL f/5.6.  I know I can always but the 21mm but at a higher price but the 617S is a one in a decade buy. If I get the 617s I will use B&W and Velvia50 and have it drum scanned  I do have an 11x11 Durst Enlarger.

 

What do I do?? What would you do? H E L P !!!

And you went with...??? 😁

[Torontoamateur]

I bought the 21mm Super Elmar. f/3.4 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[TomB_tx]

Thanks for reporting back - good and practical choice!

On my last trip to the Grand Canyon (not planned, was passing by during cross country drive) I used mainly 35 & 21 on M9 & M6. Too cheap for the Super Elmar for my limited 21 use, I had the Voigtlander 21 f4, and it gave very nice results. If I used one more I’d go for the Elmar.