How do I enjoy my M240 more?

[Steve Ricoh]

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On 31 December 2019 at 8:25 PM, petecarr said:

I’m a professional photographer. It’s been paying the bills for 10 years and a passion for over 15.  Nikon’s for client work. Leicas for personal work. I try to keep things simple to avoid confusion and mental debate. Leica Q is my 28mm prime lens. Leica M240 with a 50 is used mostly like that for a different perspective but I try and use it like a fixed lens camera. 
 

I use all my cameras in full manual mode. I prefer to control things not the camera. 
 

I just feel like I’m missing something or doing it wrong on the M240. You hear about the benefits of slowing down but I’m not getting them. I would love to slow down, relax and disconnect from the digital world some days. 

With the M240 and the M6 I use critical focus when using the 50 f1.4 or 90 f2, but the RF comes Ito its own with a 35mm lens using scale focus, set to f8. A really 'quick and slick' street machine, especially with lenses having the focusing tab and the user employing memory muscle with respect to focus distance in relation to the 12 hr clock face.

 

Edited January 1, 2020 by Steve Ricoh

[petecarr]

On 1/1/2020 at 4:53 AM, Ko.Fe. said:

Have and Use isn't the same. 

Indeed. I have no money so I can’t buy film to use it. 

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[Ko.Fe.]

23 minutes ago, petecarr said:

Indeed. I have no money so I can’t buy film to use it. 

Our daughter left photog job not enough pay...

[petecarr]

6 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Our daughter left photog job not enough pay...

It’s a really really hard life. Rewarding for the soul but I can’t afford to retire. 
 

Seems the best advice really is to use it more. Past few days I’ve been 1 camera at a time rather than one on each shoulder. But I do like low light photography and almost every photo on my Voightlander 40 1.4 is out of focus. Very hard work. 

[RayD28]

A slight twist.  The light yesterday late afternoon was good so I grabbed my MP with a fresh roll of HP5 and went to the local park where there is usually a pickup basketball game.  I started with my 50mm but it was just too tight to catch the action so I switched to 28mm.  I had to get close to fill the frame so focusing the fast action was tough.  I finally decided to use scale focusing.  The light was not so strong that I could just go to f8 and 1/500 so I had to balance getting depth of field along with a fast as possible shutter speed.  I shot 36 shots and I'm eager to see how often I hit focus but it will be a few days before I can develop the film at home.

All the while I wished I brought the M240 so I could see how my focusing techniques worked (or not).  I find the M240 LCD great for checking focus.  

I have Nikon gear and nice lenses but I bet auto focus would not have made a huge difference regarding hit rate.  I can't tell you how many times Nikon's autofocus let me down.  

Ray

[Ko.Fe.]

Why not increase dof? I used f2-f5.6 yesterday for low light with M-.E.

M240 should be fine at iso 4000.

17 hours ago, petecarr said:

It’s a really really hard life. Rewarding for the soul but I can’t afford to retire. 
 

Seems the best advice really is to use it more. Past few days I’ve been 1 camera at a time rather than one on each shoulder. But I do like low light photography and almost every photo on my Voightlander 40 1.4 is out of focus. Very hard work. 

 

[lct]

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The CV 40/1.4 suffers from focus shift on rangefinders.

[petecarr]

3 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Why not increase dof? I used f2-f5.6 yesterday for low light with M-.E.

M240 should be fine at iso 4000.

 

I could I guess. I’ve got a 35mm f2.5 and a 50mm f2. But I do love the look of shallow dof. The Leica Q’s 28 1.7 is beautiful. I could have stayed with Fuji but I wanted a good small full frame system for low light and shallow dof. 

 

3 hours ago, lct said:

The CV 40/1.4 suffers from focus shift on rangefinders.

Oh? How badly and is there a workaround?

[lct]

Just now, petecarr said:

Oh? How badly and is there a workaround?

One of the worse focus shift i've seen sorry. Only workarounds i know of is to use a mirrorless camera with this lens, or to learn using it with its flaws, but Voigtlander has just launched a 35/1.4ii lens in SC and MC versions. Would have no significant focus shift AFAIK but I have no experience with it.

[petecarr]

15 hours ago, RayD28 said:

 I find the M240 LCD great for checking focus.  

Interesting. I find it awful because the previews are such low-res it’s hard to see if I nailed the focus at low depth of field. It’s alright for quickly checking exposure. 

[RayD28]

9 hours ago, petecarr said:

Interesting. I find it awful because the previews are such low-res it’s hard to see if I nailed the focus at low depth of field. It’s alright for quickly checking exposure. 

I agree until you zoom in.  Takes a moment to zoom in and then fiddle with the arrows to find the subject, but once I find it I know how acceptable the focus is.  

[Herr Barnack]

On 12/30/2019 at 4:43 AM, petecarr said:

I have a Leica Q and M240 as my travel cameras. I could use my Nikon Z setup but I prefer the size of the Leica gear. But every time I go away I struggle with the M240. I’m not quick to focus with it. The preview images are seriously bad and you can’t really check the focus on them. I often wish I could disable the screen so I don’t have the temptation to check it and annoy me. I just don’t feel like I’m having fun. So yesterday I put the M240 away and just stuck to the Q and had fun. 

Maybe I’m fighting between two ways of working? I often think I should put the Q away for a while and focus on the M240 but it seems nuts to shelf a £3000 camera when it’s *such* a good camera. 

Before I had the Q I had a Fuji X100s and loved it to bits. One camera. One focal length. It made me feel like I was Joel Meyerowitz on the streets of New York. Silly but such fun. The Q is my most used camera for this decade. The M240 was bought with some money my dad left me so I feel obligated to enjoy it but it’s been 2 years now and I’m not sure I am. 

How do I enjoy it more? I’m travelling now in the Netherlands and would love to have some fun with it.

@petecarr,

Focusing with an M camera takes some practice.  Speed and accuracy of focus will come with time; it's all about time with your eye glued to the eyepiece of the camera.  The more hours you spend that way, the more hours you hone your focusing technique, the sooner focusing proficiency will start to appear.  Some M users will say this is an abomination, but you might think about stopping down your lens from wide open one or two f/stops while perfecting your technique; this will give you a bit of room for error and will help avoid shots where focus is missed.  Be mindful to not use this technique long term, as it will then become a crutch and hold you back from maximizing your low light shooting and the shallow depth of field that your M lenses have to offer.

Yes, the rear screens of the M240 cameras are not that great for determining critical focus, depending on which lens you are using.  With my 90 Summicron, I had to make myself quit looking at the rear screen to try to determine if I had nailed focus.  The images on the rear screen of my M-P 240 always look terrible with that lens.  I had to learn to focus with relentless attention and ignore the rear screen.  My 90 Summicron shots come out well focused probably 90% or more of the time; what I had to learn was to stop second guessing my focus based on what the rear screen was showing me. 

While you are traveling in the Netherlands, think about shooting with your M240 75% of the time so you can get better with focusing it and shoot with your Q 25% of the time just for fun or when you need autofocus and/or the higher ISO range the Q has to offer.

Don't give up on your M240 and manual focus - it will come with time and practice.  If you persevere, in time quicker, accurate focusing will become second nature. 

These are just my thoughts, based on my own experience. 

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

 

Edit

Given that you have been struggling with focusing your M240 for two years, I am wondering if your rangefinder mechanism is out of calibration.  I would consider that as a possible reason for your focusing issues.  If none of the above helps, talk to your Leica dealer in the UK and ask them to take a look at your M240 to evaluate it and make a recommendation.

Edited January 4, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[250swb]

16 hours ago, petecarr said:

I could I guess. I’ve got a 35mm f2.5 and a 50mm f2. But I do love the look of shallow dof. The Leica Q’s 28 1.7 is beautiful. I could have stayed with Fuji but I wanted a good small full frame system for low light and shallow dof. 

So now we are getting to the truth. Here is the thing, everybody takes longer to focus when the DOF is shallow, and it is harder to check focus in the LCD. So saying you aren't fast enough and it's impossible to check focus is trying to set yourself apart rather than doing what everybody does, and has done from the days of film, use workarounds. 

The first thing to do is ask yourself why all good photojournalists who use Leica's tend to stick with the 'f/8 and be there' motto, it works because you use DOF to get everything important in focus and focusing is faster because you know you have some latitude with DOF to play with. So for fast moving events use f/8, or f/11, or f/16 because with the M240 you have another workaround, set the ISO to 'Auto' and let it take care of itself setting the minimum shutter speed limit so you don't get camera shake or subject movement. 

It's probably also worth considering fast lenses with shallow DOF were a requirement for low light, and when used focus bracketing the shot was, and is, a good idea. Now that people think shallow DOF is 'artistic' and is used for it's own sake focusing is never going to be fast, so develop a habit, perhaps in this order focus on the subject, then a fraction behind, then a fraction in front, each bracket will hopefully cover your own or the subjects movement between focusing and pressing the shutter. Do it the same each time and in your editing your shots you'll know which was supposed to be sharp, then see if either of the other two are sharper.

Edited January 4, 2020 by 250swb

[petecarr]

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

So now we are getting to the truth. Here is the thing, everybody takes longer to focus when the DOF is shallow, and it is harder to check focus in the LCD. So saying you aren't fast enough and it's impossible to check focus is trying to set yourself apart rather than doing what everybody does, and has done from the days of film, use workarounds. 

This is what I was hoping for. Some tips on what normal people do with the camera because I feel like I've got a good understanding and if I'm doing everything right and still not enjoying it then maybe its not for me. 

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

The first thing to do is ask yourself why all good photojournalists who use Leica's tend to stick with the 'f/8 and be there' motto, it works because you use DOF to get everything important in focus and focusing is faster because you know you have some latitude with DOF to play with. So for fast moving events use f/8, or f/11, or f/16 because with the M240 you have another workaround, set the ISO to 'Auto' and let it take care of itself setting the minimum shutter speed limit so you don't get camera shake or subject movement. 

Thanks. But yeah it seems I'm doing some things right. I do walk around with it set to f8. I have years of experience using my big Nikon D800/700 on M without auto-iso because I want to be in control. I use f/1.x for creative reasons because sometimes I like subject isolation. Maybe for the simplest of reasons to photograph my wife while we're sat in a cafe. 

3 hours ago, 250swb said:

It's probably also worth considering fast lenses with shallow DOF were a requirement for low light, and when used focus bracketing the shot was, and is, a good idea. Now that people think shallow DOF is 'artistic' and is used for it's own sake focusing is never going to be fast, so develop a habit, perhaps in this order focus on the subject, then a fraction behind, then a fraction in front, each bracket will hopefully cover your own or the subjects movement between focusing and pressing the shutter. Do it the same each time and in your editing your shots you'll know which was supposed to be sharp, then see if either of the other two are sharper.

Thanks. That's something I never considered. I'll bare that in mind next time I'm out with it :) 

 

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

@petecarr,

Focusing with an M camera takes some practice.  Speed and accuracy of focus will come with time; it's all about time with your eye glued to the eyepiece of the camera.  The more hours you spend that way, the more hours you hone your focusing technique, the sooner focusing proficiency will start to appear.  Some M users will say this is an abomination, but you might think about stopping down your lens from wide open one or two f/stops while perfecting your technique; this will give you a bit of room for error and will help avoid shots where focus is missed.  Be mindful to not use this technique long term, as it will then become a crutch and hold you back from maximizing your low light shooting and the shallow depth of field that your M lenses have to offer.

Yeah I may have to try and accept that I don't have the experience for f/1.4 just yet and use f/2 or f/2.8. Just a bit annoying with the ISO limitations on the 240. I'm used to ISO 6400 on my work cameras. Even my old Nikon D700 was "ok" at that and it's 11 years old. So it's a little hard limiting myself to 3200. The other night we were out around The Hague and it was foggy. I tried with the M240 and I really had to push it to get results. I almost wish I'd bought a M10 instead. I nearly did but decided the £4000 difference for a bit better ISO was crazy. Plus you'd probably be seeing a thread called "Help me enjoy my expensive M10 more" ;) 

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Yes, the rear screens of the M240 cameras are not that great for determining critical focus, depending on which lens you are using.  With my 90 Summicron, I had to make myself quit looking at the rear screen to try to determine if I had nailed focus.  The images on the rear screen of my M-P 240 always look terrible with that lens.  I had to learn to focus with relentless attention and ignore the rear screen.  My 90 Summicron shots come out well focused probably 90% or more of the time; what I had to learn was to stop second guessing my focus based on what the rear screen was showing me. 

 

That's something I'm trying to remind myself to do. If I was using film I'd have no choice but its the fact that I can look if I want to that draws me back in. If only I could re-program the "Play" button to do something else instead. Hard habit to break. 

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

While you are traveling in the Netherlands, think about shooting with your M240 75% of the time so you can get better with focusing it and shoot with your Q 25% of the time just for fun or when you need autofocus and/or the higher ISO range the Q has to offer.

Don't give up on your M240 and manual focus - it will come with time and practice.  If you persevere, in time quicker, accurate focusing will become second nature. 

These are just my thoughts, based on my own experience. 

Good luck and keep us posted!

Thanks. I did do just that. I took less photos, partly because it was very quiet over New Year and very overcast. But I felt happier with just 1 camera around my neck. The Q came out when I needed low light or wide architectural photos. I'll keep at it :) 

7 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

Edit

Given that you have been struggling with focusing your M240 for two years, I am wondering if your rangefinder mechanism is out of calibration.  I would consider that as a possible reason for your focusing issues.  If none of the above helps, talk to your Leica dealer in the UK and ask them to take a look at your M240 to evaluate it and make a recommendation.

It's possible. I bought it from a friend and trusted him. What I've noticed though is that at infinity the two images don't always line up when focusing. I thought it was because I was using 3rd party lenses. Zeiss and Voightlander. I also just assumed that it wouldn't matter because I've pushed it to infinity at f/8 so it'll be fine. But maybe there is an issue there I need to look into. 

[jaeger]

19 hours ago, petecarr said:

Interesting. I find it awful because the previews are such low-res it’s hard to see if I nailed the focus at low depth of field. It’s alright for quickly checking exposure. 

zoom dial

[petecarr]

57 minutes ago, jaeger said:

zoom dial

Zooming in on a low-res jpg isn’t really super fun. 

[jaeger]

1 hour ago, petecarr said:

Zooming in on a low-res jpg isn’t really super fun. 

it's true when it's out of focus or using ultra wide angle lenses.  I can see eyelashes on 50 lux and 90 cron wide open shots within only 1 or 2 clicks sometimes no zoom needed depends on how close of my model.  Not so much details when using my 24 lux but I still can see whether it's out or not, therefore I can presume ultra wide is really difficult to check.  Anyways ultra wide is hard to go out of focus, and it's about the whole frame image but not a tiny spot.  In fact, I don't check view much, if I did I only take a quick peek of the frame only and technically I think I'm qualified to use MD soon.

It's probably why you've never able to enjoy rangefinder I should say not just M.

 

[petecarr]

So after doing some tests the rangefinder maybe misaligned. I tried focusing on some keys. Got it so the text was in focus according to the viewfinder and took a photo. I then adjusted the focus so the image was misaligned and took a photo. The 2nd photo that was supposed to be out of focus was actually in focus and I could clearly see that on the lcd display. 

It seems I’ve spent 2 years fighting with a broken camera. No wonder I felt like the display wasn’t good enough to check focus. It was always off. 
 

Now if I can just understand the metering system better I might actually make some progress. 

[jaeger]

great.  have you seen a post about adjusting front and back focus?  Here

 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by jaeger

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[epand56]

On 1/1/2020 at 4:02 AM, ravinj said:

I used to own the Q (now have the Q2) and still own the M240. I do feel that Q is some ways and Q2 is many ways makes the M240 redundant at times.

Q and M are two very different ways of taking pictures, in my opinion, I don't think each camera being redundant to the other.
One can decide to shoot both for different purposes or, as I did, decide that manual rangefinder photography is his cup of tea. I just own the M240 and a few lenses and concentrate my efforts on shooting that camera at its best.
If I were the OP, i would choose which one to sell, between Q and M, and keep the other.