The new M 75 Noct/90 Lux that want to be like S

[Jeff S]

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1 hour ago, John McMaster said:

I was just replying to your

 

I know, and I in turn was responding to your post, in which you wrote that S lenses were heavy compared to M and R glass (those lacked AF and OIS), and that the SL Summilux was so heavy (the Summicrons are not) along with the new, fast M lenses (the competitive landscape has changed....see Otus, etc... and they’re arguably  better suited for the SL, which is smart cross-marketing).

Jeff

Edited December 29, 2019 by Jeff S

[setuporg]

I was shooting my own conference with S 007 + S100 and X1DmkII+XCD 80.  Half of the AF shots with the S100 are throwaways.  The X1D did OK.  We need to so something here...

Edited December 29, 2019 by setuporg

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[tom0511]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb setuporg:

I was shooting my own conference with S 007 + S100 and X1DmkII+XCD 80.  Half of the AF shots with the S100 are throwaways.  The X1D did OK.  We need to so something here...

I think the 100mm is the most critical lens to focus. The 70 and 120 seem to focus more consistent and reliable. I dont know why. It also seems to depend on distance. My 100mm focused fine at shorter distance but slightly off at medium distance. I sent it to Leica together with my body and it is better now. Still not such a high accurancy rate as I get with my 70 and 120.

 

[setuporg]

Yes, the conference shots were at 50 meters or further away and it focuses say on the podium not the face.  Very hard to do.  We need face recognition in S3.

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, 01af said:

The S2 came when sensors larger than 24 × 36 mm inevitably were CCD but then, very soon, live-view-capable CMOS sensors in medium-format sizes materialized.

That's an interesting interpretation, given that the S-007 had one of the first CMOS medium format sensors. Are you trying to say that the S2 was "obsoleted" by later S cameras? Seems self-evident, if you subscribe to the notion that a camera becomes obsolete when its successor is released.

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

Yes, the conference shots were at 50 meters or further away and it focuses say on the podium not the face.  Very hard to do.  We need face recognition in S3.

How fast was the podium moving?😀

[peterv]

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I've been reading here and elsewhere about autofocus trouble with the 100mm for ages, but I think it's a very interesting lens and I’d really like to experiment with it. If I had the money I would surely buy it, hopefully it will be next on my list and then the 45 and 180.

I was wondering in case of shooting a concert or something like that on a podium 50 meters away, maybe it would be good practice to just focus once at wherever you want to place it with contrast detection on the LCD or with the help of the Leica Photos app and be done with it and turn off the auto focus. Of course one would have to make sure to not incidentally move the lens barrel, and repeat the focussing with contrast detection autofocus a few times in between series of shots. I am guesstimating that depth of field will be around 2 to 3 meters wide open so that would give the artists on the podium some room to manoeuvre and stay in focus.

For handling a lens with iffy PDAF like that in general, I guess those who are used to mirrorless cameras with rear displays could just compose on the LCD and use CDAF instead of looking through the viewfinder and perhaps get better results focus-wise.

[01af]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb BernardC:

Are you trying to say that the S2 was "obsoleted" by later S cameras?

That's the most absurd interpretation of what I said.

I am saying that CMOS sensor technology renders optical SLR viewfinders with flipping mirrors and long flange distances obsolete. So the Leica S2 and S (Typ 006) made sense at their time while CMOS sensors larger than 35-mm format weren't yet available—but the S (Typ 007) and the upcoming S3 are anachronistic and obsolete cameras. I understand that some users don't see the benefits of the mirrorless principle and still want optical viewfinders ... but a few nostalgics won't be enough to keep the S system alive and profitable in the future.

[tom0511]

I wonder why so many professional photographers still use Nikon and Canon DSLRs.

...and yes, I use the SL system as well.  

Edited December 29, 2019 by tom0511

[Stuart Richardson]

6 hours ago, 01af said:

 

I am saying that CMOS sensor technology renders optical SLR viewfinders with flipping mirrors and long flange distances obsolete. So the Leica S2 and S (Typ 006) made sense at their time while CMOS sensors larger than 35-mm format weren't yet available—but the S (Typ 007) and the upcoming S3 are anachronistic and obsolete cameras. I understand that some users don't see the benefits of the mirrorless principle and still want optical viewfinders ... but a few nostalgics won't be enough to keep the S system alive and profitable in the future.

Different is not obsolete. Optical viewfinders have perfect contrast, perfect framerate, require no power, always match the brightness and white balance of the scene, don't blind you at night and keep distracting information at a minimum. Mirrorless viewfinders can be overlaid with all kinds of information and give you a good estimate of what the sensor is actually reading (as does the live view coming off of the rear screen of a CMOS DSLR). 

Personally I am already looking enough at the world through a screen, I want to see the ACTUAL world. I would much rather use a view camera, rangefinder or DSLR. EVF's are useful at times, but I still find the viewing system to be utterly joyless. Leica already has a mirrorless system, and clearly they have put most of their R&D and research into it. It seems highly unlikely to me that the S will get any more R&D at this point, and the whole system will be shut down. Not because it is a DSLR, but because it is impractically expensive compared to other MF systems. Mirrorless may be the fashion at the moment, but the cynic in me thinks that this is partially due to the very difficult market that camera companies are now in...DSLR's are complicated and expensive to manufacture...mirror and prism assemblies require a lot of precision and difficult manufacturing. EVF based cameras are a lot more straightforward in that sense.

[BernardC]

19 hours ago, 01af said:

the S (Typ 007) and the upcoming S3 are anachronistic and obsolete cameras.

I understood what you wrote perfectly well. A few people here have expressed the idea that Leica should copy Fuji and Hasselblad's mirrorless medium format cameras. That strategy would be a non-starter. The market is already crowded, and it is very different from the S market, or the PhaseOne and Hasselblad H market.

The two mirrorless MF options sell to customers who are upgrading from the Sony A7r. I'm not guessing, that's what I have been told by people who sell them. Landscape photographers were lured by the promise of a 40+ MP "full frame" mirrorless camera, and quickly realized that it was near-impossible to get consistently sharp images without impeccable technique and expensive lenses. Going to a medium format sensor loosens the constraints a little bit. You still need expensive lenses, but you can stop-down more before pixel-peeping diffraction becomes noticeable. Focus has a bit more tolerance, as does exposure. In short, targeted photographers found that they got a significantly higher "hit rate" for not much more money (Sony bodies are cheap, Otus lenses aren't).

It's a nice little market niche, but it's not the Leica S market, and that's where misunderstandings come to play. The S is for professional photographers who need the features of more expensive medium format SLRs, with the ruggedness and speed of 35mm SLRs. We could argue all year about whether this is a worthwhile market, and whether Leica has reached its targets, but that's for Leica's board to figure-out. They have access to real numbers, not just feelings and wants.

To be frank, most of us here are not in the target market for the S. I include myself in that group. I got into the system at a bargain price (buying new, for the most part), and it replaced a Mamiya/Phase system that was incredibly clunky and ill-conceived. I would be surprised if many of the people who use the S for a living were inclined to discuss the S on a web board in their spare time. As I've mentioned in an earlier thread, I would also be surprised if these same professionals would complain about paying two hundred Euros to service a five-year old lens and get a new focus motor in the bargain. One of the notable differences between professionals and amateurs is that professionals service their gear, whether it "needs" it or not.

Long story short: contrary to your recollection, Leica was one of the first to offer a CMOS sensor in medium format. They know about the mirrorless market. Unlike the M, SL, and most other Leica products, their target customer isn't well represented on this discussion board (as enjoyable as the board may be otherwise). Right or wrong, Leica has decided that the SL would be their mirrorless competitor, the S their SLR, and the M their rangefinder. That's a lot of bases to cover for such a small company. I understand that you want them to open a new front, halfway between the S and SL. Maybe they will, but one can hardly complain that they aren't diversified enough already.

[01af]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

I understood what you wrote perfectly well.

No, you didn't. Which is strange because what I'm saying isn't soo complicated.

.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

The S is for professional photographers who need the features of more expensive medium-format SLRS ...

Which would be—? ... I mean, besides being medium-format?

.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

... with the ruggedness and speed of 35-mm SLRS.

Mirrorless cameras are more rugged and faster than SLR cameras.

.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

Contrary to your recollection ...

What do you know about my recollection?

.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

... Leica was one of the first to offer a CMOS sensor in medium format.

I never said they weren't.

.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

... Leica has decided that the SL would be their mirrorless competitor, the S their SLR, and the M their rangefinder. That's a lot of bases to cover for such a small company.

Yes, it sure is. And that's not even all the bases they're trying to cover.

.

vor 13 Minuten schrieb BernardC:

I understand that you want them to open a new front, halfway between the S and SL.

Your understanding is wrong.

So, for the third time now: I'm not suggesting Leica Camera should open a new front. Instead, they should adjust one of their positions and drop the mirror in the S system. After all, that's not primarily their SLR system but their medium-format system. And in the era of the CMOS sensor, the SLR principle is an anachronism ... in any format.

 

[BernardC]

3 minutes ago, 01af said:

Which would be—? ... I mean, besides being medium-format?

The PhaseOne XF and Hasselblad H6. cameras that are even more expensive than the S, and yet you see one or the other in any video coverage of a high-end studio photo shoot. Large-market photographers often rent, rather than buy, these.

 

6 minutes ago, 01af said:

Mirrorless cameras are more rugged and faster than SLR cameras.

...except for the EOS-1DX and Nikon D6 (and their soon-to-be-released replacements). 2020 is an Olympic year, so you will see lots of those.

 

I understand that you are not a fan of the SLR, and that you think the whole category should disappear. Maybe it will some day (vinyl records and view cameras are still around, so perhaps not someday soon!).

The point is, a lot of high-end photographers prefer the SLR format, even though you don't. That's the market Leica targeted with the S. They could release a mirrorless medium format, slotting somewhere between the SL and S in price, but they haven't (yet). Such a camera would not be a replacement for the S, it would be a different camera with a different market. Just like the M and SL are different cameras that happen to share a sensor size.

[otto.f]

I find it quite excessive to call an optical viewfinder system obsolete and anachronistic where the electronical viewfinder systems are hardly fully developed and over the whole range hardly perfect or satisfying, which is not to deny that the SL has a reasonable EVF. As long as this is the situation I prefer looking through the lens above looking from the sensor.

But this discussion is quite off topic, sorry

Edited December 30, 2019 by otto.f

[01af]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb BernardC:

I understand that you are not a fan of the SLR ...

Finally, you understood what I'm saying. So I can now accept that you disagree with me (and, for the records, I keep disagreeing with you). And that's fine.

[xiaubauu2009]

On 12/29/2019 at 3:44 PM, setuporg said:

I was shooting my own conference with S 007 + S100 and X1DmkII+XCD 80.  Half of the AF shots with the S100 are throwaways.  The X1D did OK.  We need to so something here...

the big mirror box... hard to be critical... It's almost impossible to focus wrong on a mirrorless camera and the error is basically just user operation error.

Alpa camera have shimming kit of 0.01mm for the digital back to be shim to infinity to ensure perfect focus all the time... that mirror angle, even a build up of dust inside some of the mechanism will offset the focus out of alignment. SLR usage now is more towards either fast sports, or studio shooting where you can focus shoot and repeat until satisfied...

[xiaubauu2009]

On 12/30/2019 at 8:20 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

don't blind you at night

OVF will not see anything though at night... hahah... I mean shooting into a dark night/astro etc, I think OVF is quite useless... EVF while not perfect, can be use almost in all situation.... I just hope AR tech will improve till the point that we can have an OVF that has EVF assistance...

[tom0511]

I dont see how EVF-cameras are faster overall than dslrs, specially in case of small medium format.

In theory they maybe should, but if you see how long it takes to switch on a x1dII compared to switch on a 10 year old Leica S2P....the moment can be gone with the x1d once the camera is ready.

Than look through the viewfinder of both during shooting a portrait and look how long it blacks out. With which camera you would have the better feeling if the eyes were open or not? (ok, you could use live replay of the last foto with the EVF...but than you might miss the next moment again). Than shoot anything non static with both cameras.

On the other side I use the SL and even bought the SL2, which overall works quite fine for most of my needs. There are still things which dont work as I would expect, but its all things I accept for the nice user interface, the out of camera color and IQ and to be able to use the Leica lenses. Also for me it is a really good combo:

- The S for the lovely rendering of the lenses, the IQ, the feel of a solid body, and the beaitiful viewfinder.

-The SL as the fast and flexbible do it all camera, including good movie quality 

-The M as the simplest photographic tool, where you can forget that a camera is between you and the subject.

[Stuart Richardson]

7 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

OVF will not see anything though at night... hahah... I mean shooting into a dark night/astro etc, I think OVF is quite useless... EVF while not perfect, can be use almost in all situation.... I just hope AR tech will improve till the point that we can have an OVF that has EVF assistance...

I am just curious? Do you actually use the S at night? In a place with minimal lights from cities etc? It is a major part of my practice, since we basically have darkness from November until February. With an optical viewfinder, your eyes can adjust to the dark and you can see rather well, especially when there is some level of moonlight. With an EVF, you never get this chance, as every time you bend down to look at the viewfinder your night vision is destroyed. You have a hard time focusing on stars, as they are nearly impossible to pick out from the noise, and the refresh rate and lack of peaking make it difficult to focus at all. With the OVF, none of those things matter. I am sure they will keep improving, but to this day, these considerations apply. 

But anyway, all of this is rather tiresome. There is an S with an EVF, it is the SL. If you want to go that route, you are in luck, as that is the one that is going to get developed. 

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