Different exposure viewfinder vs. LV

[jdlaing]

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One with Advanced Metering

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[farnz]

38 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

One with Classic Metering

Nice house, JD, but there must be an awful lot of dusting to do.  It looks like you're building a rocket too, which is an ambitious home project.

Pete. 😎

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[jdlaing]

14 minutes ago, farnz said:

Nice house, JD, but there must be an awful lot of dusting to do.  It looks like you're building a rocket too, which is an ambitious home project.

Pete. 😎

😉The staff handles those chores.

Edited December 22, 2019 by jdlaing

[250swb]

15 hours ago, dau said:

This happens not to be the case.

The manual for the M (Typ 240) says on page 180:

Hence, you can use the spot and multifield methods with the M even when not in live view mode, while the manual for the M10 restricts the spot and the multifield method to the live view mode.

The shutter is open when you use multi field or spot metering, hence the meter is viewing the scene 'live' as regards metering, not via a reflective patch from the shutter blades. It has already been mentioned early on that having the shutter open causes a slight delay in making the photograph.  Until being derailed by pedantry this is what was being talked about, the distinction between the two modes, why they are different, and not if you can see something in the LCD!

Edited December 23, 2019 by 250swb

[dau]

46 minutes ago, 250swb said:

The shutter is open when you use multi field or spot metering, hence the meter is viewing the scene 'live' as regards metering, not via a reflective patch from the shutter blades. It has already been mentioned early on that having the shutter open causes a slight delay in making the photograph.  Until being derailed by pedantry this is what was being talked about, the distinction between the two modes, why they are different, and not if you can see something in the LCD!

Thank you very much, and merry christmas to you, too.🎄

[mujk]

What may be causing a bit of confusion here is that the M240 has Classic and Advanced metering modes when using the OVF. The M10 doesn't have these modes (it's always "Classic") and thus it works differently.

[jaapv]

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How the camera functions is of course interesting, but the point to be made to answer the OP's question is that using spot metering, centerweighed metering or multifield can lead to very different exposure outcomes, depending on the contrast and light distribution of the subject. It is worth noting that wideangle lenses are more prone to this variation, for the simple reason that they capture more subject matter.

[jdlaing]

2 hours ago, mujk said:

What may be causing a bit of confusion here is that the M240 has Classic and Advanced metering modes when using the OVF. The M10 doesn't have these modes (it's always "Classic") and thus it works differently.

Are you sure about that? Can you not go into the menu screen and select Advanced Metering?

[mujk]

3 hours ago, jdlaing said:

Are you sure about that? Can you not go into the menu screen and select Advanced Metering?

Yes. I don't have an M240, but checked the manual p 180:

EXPOSURE  METERING  METhODS:

Three metering methods are available on the Leica M:

–Strongly center-weighted metering in  Classic mode. This method takes account of the entire image field, although the parts of the subject situated in the center have more influence on the exposure value calculation than the areas at the margins.

–The light reflected by a bright shutter diaphragm blade in the first shutter curtain is captured by a photo diode and measured.

–A choice of spot, center weighted and multi-field metering in Advanced  mode or using live view mode (see p. 174). Metering with the picture sensor is a prerequisite for this. Required preliminary setting if not using live view mode

1.  In the main menu (see p. 154/246) select  Light Metering Mode  (page 1,  CAMERA  section), and

2.  In the sub-menu select

–Classic  shutter metering, for the conventional metering method described above, or

–Advanced   sensor metering if you want to be able to choose between the three metering methods described below

But I have an M10 and it definitely doesn't have an Advanced metering mode. Also, the M10 manual p.168 states:

Exposure Metering Methods

Depending on whether the Live View mode is being used or not, various metering methods are available to you.

–If you are using the exposure meter: Strongly center-weighted metering. This method takes account of the entire image field, although the parts of the subject situated in the center have more influence on the exposure value calculation than the areas at the margins.

–In Live View mode: Either spot, center-weighted and multi-field metering. In these cases, metering is done by the picture sensor.

If you search the forum, this has been discussed after the M10 was launched.

Edited December 23, 2019 by mujk

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, mujk said:

Yes. I don't have an M240, but checked the manual p 180:

EXPOSURE  METERING  METhODS:

Three metering methods are available on the Leica M:

–Strongly center-weighted metering in  Classic mode. This method takes account of the entire image field, although the parts of the subject situated in the center have more influence on the exposure value calculation than the areas at the margins.

–The light reflected by a bright shutter diaphragm blade in the first shutter curtain is captured by a photo diode and measured.

–A choice of spot, center weighted and multi-field metering in Advanced  mode or using live view mode (see p. 174). Metering with the picture sensor is a prerequisite for this. Required preliminary setting if not using live view mode

1.  In the main menu (see p. 154/246) select  Light Metering Mode  (page 1,  CAMERA  section), and

2.  In the sub-menu select

–Classic  shutter metering, for the conventional metering method described above, or

–Advanced   sensor metering if you want to be able to choose between the three metering methods described below

But I have an M10 and it definitely doesn't have an Advanced metering mode. Also, the M10 manual p.168 states:

Exposure Metering Methods

Depending on whether the Live View mode is being used or not, various metering methods are available to you.

–If you are using the exposure meter: Strongly center-weighted metering. This method takes account of the entire image field, although the parts of the subject situated in the center have more influence on the exposure value calculation than the areas at the margins.

–In Live View mode: Either spot, center-weighted and multi-field metering. In these cases, metering is done by the picture sensor.

If you search the forum, this has been discussed after the M10 was launched.

I believe the M 10 works the same way. If you go to the main menu screen and click on Exp Metering, what are the choices?

Multi Field is the same as advanced was on the M240.

Edited December 23, 2019 by jdlaing

[IkarusJohn]

The alternative explanation is that you cannot have spot or multi-field metering if the shutter curtain isn’t open.  On my camera, the curtain is only open in live view (using the EVF).  If you’re getting spot and multi-field metering options with Live View off, JD, the shutter must be open when you turn the camera on.  That seems odd, but I don’t have an M(240) to check.

Edited December 23, 2019 by IkarusJohn

[dau]

Spot and multi field metering both work using the sensor. Both the M (Typ 240) and the M10 can do that while LV (live view) is activated. The M (Typ 240) has an extra setting ("advanced") which enables spot and multi field metering even when LV is not activated. In order to do that, it has to keep the shutter open, even though it does not show an image on the display or in the EVF.  According to the manual, the M10 does not have that extra setting. If you want to use either spot or multi field metering, you have to turn on LV (live view).

I used to own an M (Typ 240) and I can confirm that it worked as I described here and as two members literally quoted from the manual.

The manual for the M10 seems to be clear on that point, but I have no access to an M10, so I can not put it to the test.

Apologies to the folks who think this is mere pedantry. To me, it's a difference in the user interface of the two cameras.

[250swb]

It's a good thing my desk is top quality pine because the answers to the OP's questions here make me want to bang my head against it. If ever there was parody of schoolgirls bickering and shouting 'you can't say that' this is it. Top marks for answering the OP's question.

 

[farnz]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

If ever there was parody of schoolgirls bickering and shouting 'you can't say that' this is it.

Oh - no - it's - not.

Pete.

 

 

 

 

 

(It's Pantomime season.)

[IkarusJohn]

56 minutes ago, dau said:

Spot and multi field metering both work using the sensor. Both the M (Typ 240) and the M10 can do that while LV (live view) is activated. The M (Typ 240) has an extra setting ("advanced") which enables spot and multi field metering even when LV is not activated. In order to do that, it has to keep the shutter open, even though it does not show an image on the display or in the EVF.  According to the manual, the M10 does not have that extra setting. If you want to use either spot or multi field metering, you have to turn on LV (live view).

I used to own an M (Typ 240) and I can confirm that it worked as I described here and as two members literally quoted from the manual.

The manual for the M10 seems to be clear on that point, but I have no access to an M10, so I can not put it to the test.

Apologies to the folks who think this is mere pedantry. To me, it's a difference in the user interface of the two cameras.

Interesting, thank you.

[dau]

40 minutes ago, 250swb said:

It's a good thing my desk is top quality pine

That's a good thing indeed.

The original question - why do different ways of metering lead to differently exposed frames - was answered in the course of the thread. While discussing that question, some members were struck by the the way their cameras have to be operated for using those ways of metering. It has not been unheard of that the answers to one question lead to other question, at times related to the original question.  If this bothers you, ask the admin or one of the moderators to shout "orderrr" or  some such.

OTOH, you could learn to live with the fact that other members are interested in things you don't give a hoot about. Or you can bang your head. As you prefer.

[jdlaing]

3 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

The alternative explanation is that you cannot have spot or multi-field metering if the shutter curtain isn’t open.  On my camera, the curtain is only open in live view (using the EVF).  If you’re getting spot and multi-field metering options with Live View off, JD, the shutter must be open when you turn the camera on.  That seems odd, but I don’t have an M(240) to check.

It’s really simple. 
I turn on the camera. I do NOT press the live view button. No evf is mounted.

I press the menu button and scroll to the metering selection and then select advanced metering. I hear a click which I happen to know is the shutter opening to permit metering off the sensor. I happily snap away in advanced metering. The lcd screen is NOT on. I use the ovf.

When I turn the camera off the shutter closes. If I turn the camera back on, and have not changed the metering selection, the shutter opens. The lcd does not turn on to show the live view screen. 

All of you experts are overthinking a simple task
 

[dau]

4 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

All of you experts are overthinking a simple task

a task which is simple on the M10 as well, but done differently.

[jdlaing]

26 minutes ago, dau said:

a task which is simple on the M10 as well, but done differently.

Can you tell me how it is done differently? 

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[dau]

9 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

Can you tell me how it is done differently? 

I think it has been told several times in this thread. The M10 does not have an "advanced mode" for metering. If you want spot or multifield metering, you turn on live view and then you select your metering method.