No serial numbers? M4

[Original Black Paint]

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Hi, did Leica ever produce M4s without serial numbers on top? Trying to find out about this particular M4. Ever see anything like this before? 

Thank You 

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[ianman]

I've seen top plates without numbers for sale. Maybe a previous owner changed it for some reason.

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[Original Black Paint]

2 minutes ago, ianman said:

I've seen top plates without numbers for sale. Maybe a previous owner changed it for some reason.

Thanks good to know. Never knew this,thanks.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Original,

Welcome to the Forum.

The photo that you provided seems to show a camera body without a self timer. Is it possible to see a photo of the camera from the front?

If there is no self timer then this might also be an M4-2 with the hot shoe replaced with an earlier accessory shoe.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited December 15, 2019 by Michael Geschlecht

[Frase]

Not 100% but if its a m4-2 or m4p then it should say Leitz on the top, I think maybe its a un issued M4 top plate on a m4-2 or m4p body or maybe which I have seen on other forums a mda body shell used to repair a M4.

[mmradman]

Only a guess; the top plate looks in a pristine condition, so probably original was replaced with spare but no serial number was transferred (engraved) onto the replacement top plate.

[250swb]

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Yes the top plate looks new but the rest of the camera looks a little 'worn'. So a cobbled together bitsa or unofficial repair.

[Frase]

9 hours ago, mmradman said:

Only a guess; the top plate looks in a pristine condition, so probably original was replaced with spare but no serial number was transferred (engraved) onto the replacement top plate.

But it can't be an M4 shell as no self timer.

[mmradman]

1 hour ago, Frase said:

But it can't be an M4 shell as no self timer.

I have no idea, I thought self timer is on the front of the camera.  Top plate is limited to advance lever, rewind knob, shutter speed dial, hot shoe and shutter button.

[Michael Geschlecht]

12 minutes ago, mmradman said:

I have no idea, I thought self timer is on the front of the camera.  Top plate is limited to advance lever, rewind knob, shutter speed dial, hot shoe and shutter button.

Hello Mladen,

You are correct. But the photo in Post #1 also seems to also show part of the front of the camera. This appears to not have a self timer where it would normally go. Like the body is with an M4-M.

Best Regards,

Michael

[mmradman]

18 minutes ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Mladen,

You are correct. But the photo in Post #1 also seems to also show part of the front of the camera. This appears to not have a self timer where it would normally go. Like the body is with an M4-M.

Best Regards,

Michael

Ok, I am not familiar with every M model but usually serial number is somewhere on the top deck.  In this instance pristine top plate has none.  As spare part is made for the batch or series of cameras it would be unlikely to come with unique number.

I am guessing the DBP on the top plate engraving means something like Deutche Bundes Patent (BDR vs DDR days), M4 was German Made while later M4-suffixed Cameras were Canadian.  Later Ms like M6 lost classic engraving. Grateful to any German expert on better explanations.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by mmradman

[Michael Geschlecht]

14 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Ok, I am not familiar with every M model but usually serial number is somewhere on the top deck.  In this instance pristine top plate has none.  As spare part is made for the batch or series of cameras it would be unlikely to come with unique number.

I am guessing the DBP on the top plate engraving means something like Deutche Bundes Patent (BDR vs DDR days), M4 was German Made while later M4-suffixed Cameras were Canadian.  Later Ms like M6 lost classic engraving. Grateful to any German expert on better explanations.

 

Hello Mladen,

I think that a number of the M4-M cameras were made in Wetzlar.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Frase]

I think its a M4-2 as its got no front red dot like the M4p with a replacement un-issued/old stock M4 top plate also with a repainted hotshoe. Its also had the frame selector changed to old style M3/M2. Also it can't be an MDa shell as they don't have selector lever.

[Frase]

Also noticed its not got m4p or m42 hotshoe.

[james.liam]

Sounds like several parts cannibalized from other cameras for some reason. Does the creature function properly otherwise?.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

Happy New Year.

It might also be a non Leitz/Leica conversion of an MDa from its windowless original into an M4 range/viewfinder model along with the addition a frame finder mechanism & lever.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited January 2, 2020 by Michael Geschlecht

[Frase]

I still think its a chrome repainted M4 with M2/3 frameline and self timer levers, or maybe the top plate is old stock original black paint but the hotshoe has been repainted and I maybe wrong but the surround around the shutter button should be chrome.

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[Frase]

No I'm wrong I think its a M42 thats had a M4 top plate added either black chrome or black paint and had the frameline lever changed to M2/3 type but also had the hotshoe etc painted black.

[Frase]

Also just noticed the frameline window with the ridges is different way round (I think wrong way).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[leicabug]

 

It is also possible that it was made up from parts, probably by someone working at Leitz. If this camera has no inside # it was probably done by a Leitz worker.