Not managing to load film properly - M-A

[A miller]

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Rob - You'll get the hang of it very soon.  Just like riding a bike. It is a perfect camera in every way.  Enjoy it!

[RobM]

6 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

If not done, we can have the pdf of M-A's instruction here from Leica website

I had a look at page 36-37 for loading film, that is the way not to have trouble with film loading "Leica way".

Including important warning ...

 

I was a bit surprised that - considering these are instructions for loading film into the M-A - they say you must still trim the film. 

Actually, Note 13 on page 37 says the following: 

 

12. Then tension the film by carefully turning the pull-out rewind button in the direction of the arrow. The film is properly wound if the rewind button turns in the opposite direction to the arrow when the quick wind lever is operated again.

So, I take it all back. They DO tell you to use the rewind button! 

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[01af]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Frase:

... my M4 will never load as easily as the video 01af just posted ...

So you are doing something wrong.
.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Frase:

Here is a better video [...]

No. It's a bad video because it fails to show the crucial part. See 0:09 in kissb4die's video, immediately before closing the back flap. Instead, it relies on pulling the film into place just by winding on. But that is a) unreliable (will work often but not always) and b) just a waste of film.

It's a common misconception to believe it was the take-up spool (the 'tulip') that must catch the film tip and then will pull the film through the camera. But it doesn't. In fact it's the sprocket wheel that will grab and transport the film by the sprocket holes. To kink the film tip hoping it will help the 'tulip' to catch and hold the film is totally pointless.

In fact you don't need no winding at all while the camera is open—just make sure to push the film fully up into the film guide and onto the sprocket wheel. The lower edge of the film must be perfectly parallel to the lower film rail before closing the back door and bottom plate. Then you must wind and fire only one empty frame. After winding a second time, the frame counter will be at zero and the camera ready to take the first picture. Before you start loading, make sure the shutter is fully cocked (sometimes it's cocked only half-way after the previous roll hit the end mid-frame while winding).

[RobM]

I've watched  six or seven videos now, all of them slightly different, and many of them recommend ensuring that the holes in the film are caught by the sprockets, which goes against what some are saying here. This guy shows us how to load film "without looking like a complete douche"! 🙂

 

https://youtu.be/ZAh3pFoYEbs 

 

I'm looking forward to trying that technique next time I load a film.

Edited December 15, 2019 by RobM

[RobM]

3 hours ago, 01af said:

Before you start loading, make sure the shutter is fully cocked (sometimes it's cocked only half-way after the previous roll hit the end mid-frame while winding).

 

Now, that sounds important, but is not mentioned elsewhere.

 

Here are the instructions from Leica, with a couple of comments emboldened by me:

 

CHANGING THE FILM

First of all, always check that a film is not already loaded by turning the pull-out rewind button in the direction of the arrow. If you feel resistance, continue as described in the “Rewinding and removing the film” section.

Take the camera in your left hand, so that the bottom cover is facing upwards.

OPENING THE CAMERA

LOADING A FILM

1. Fold up the toggle on the bottom cover.

2. Turn it to the left.

3. Lift off the bottom cover, and

4. Open the rear panel backwards.

5. Take the film cartridge in the right hand and insert it around halfway into the appropriate cavity in the camera.

6. Take hold of the film leader and, as shown in the schematic diagram inside the housing, insert it into the take up spool.

7. Then carefully press the film cartridge and film leader into the camera with the fingertips.

Important: The winding of the film should not be checked with the camera open, as the bottom cover is designed in such a way that replacing it on the camera brings the film into the correct position. CLOSING THE CAMERA Close the rear panel. Lower the bottom cover onto the locking pin on the side of the camera. Close it, ensuring that the rear panel is completely pressed in so that the bottom cover holds it in place. Lock with the toggle. WINDING TO THE 1ST PICTURE Wind the film forward one frame using the quick wind lever and release the shutter. Then tension the film by carefully turning the pull-out rewind button in the direction of the arrow. The film is properly wound if the rewind button turns in the opposite direction to the arrow when the quick wind lever is operated again. Finally, release the shutter again and cock the shutter a third time. The frame counter now shows 1 and the camera is ready to take a picture.

[01af]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb RobM:

Now, that sounds important, but is not mentioned elsewhere.

No, it is not really important. It just avoids wasting one additional frame of film.

[wattsy]

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10 hours ago, 01af said:

No, it is not really important. It just avoids wasting one additional frame of film.

It doesn't make any difference whether you start with a fully cocked, half-cocked or fully uncocked camera.

[wattsy]

This thread is a classic example of how something that is very simple can, with the help of a bunch of well meaning people with differing experience, suddenly sound complicated.

1) Baseplate off.

2) Pull out the film leader so that it is long enough to go through the tulip.

3) Shove film into camera (without paying any attention to the sprocket holes).

4) Put baseplate on and start winding. Take off the slack if you want to (I do) but it isn't necessary.

5) Wind film and click a couple of times.

6) Camera is now ready.

Because I'm rarely in a hurry and because I'm a bit of an arse (and a total hypocrite) I usually choose to complicate the procedure unnecessarily by paying close attention to the sprocket holes and minimising the amount of film leader necessarily for the film to load. That way I usually end up with 38 frames on a roll.😮

Edited December 16, 2019 by wattsy

[01af]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb wattsy:

It doesn't make any difference whether you start with a fully cocked, half-cocked, or fully uncocked camera.

If you feel that getting either 37 or 38 frames from a roll that is officially meant to yield 36 frames was 'no difference' then you're right.

Wasting half a frame at the beginning will cost you one full frame at the end of the roll.

 

[wattsy]

11 minutes ago, 01af said:

Wasting half a frame at the beginning will cost you one full frame at the end of the roll.

How does it waste half a frame? The film doesn't wind until you start winding (obviously) and the camera cocks during that first wind.

[Pyrogallol]

I was always told to take up the slack on the rewind knob to be able to check if the film is advancing. With an older camera with the removable take up spool and spring grip it is easy to do. With the modern camera you just have to be careful not to pull the film out of the “tulip”, hold the film onto the sprockets while the back is open and take up the slack then so that you stop it rewinding off the takeup prongs.

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb wattsy:

This thread is a classic example of how something that is very simple can, with the help of a bunch of well meaning people with differing experience, suddenly sound complicated.

...

I usually choose to complicate the procedure unnecessarily by paying close attention to the sprocket holes and minimising the amount of film leader necessarily for the film to load. That way I usually end up with 38 frames on a roll.

+1. That's exactly how I do it. Never had any problems. But then I grew up with loading film into my father's Barnack Leicas, so everything from there on was easy.

Cheers,

Andy

[01af]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb wattsy:

How does it waste half a frame?

Seriously!?

That question sounds as if you have never loaded a roll of film into a camera with your own hands.

[wattsy]

5 minutes ago, 01af said:

Seriously!?

That question sounds as if you have never loaded a roll of film into a camera with your own hands.

I know it's your usual MO but why don't you just explain rather than respond like a wanker?

Edited December 16, 2019 by wattsy

[01af]

vor 1 Minute schrieb wattsy:

... why don't you just explain rather than respond like a wanker?

Because I have absolutely no idea how to explain the obvious. Winding half a frame before starting to shoot wastes half a frame. What is there to explain, and how!?

[wattsy]

Just now, 01af said:

Because I have absolutely no idea how to explain the obvious. Winding half a frame before starting to shoot wastes half a frame. What is there to explain, and how!?

I thought you stated earlier that loading an uncocked camera results in wasting some film? I don't see what difference cocking the camera makes. You wind the film from the same position (assuming the same amount of leader is extended through the tulip) whenever you load a film. If the camera is uncocked, the shutter cocks as you start winding the film. If it's cocked already you have to fire the shutter and then wind it. I don't see where the wasting of film comes from. That's what I'm asking you to explain.

[01af]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb wattsy:

I thought you stated earlier that loading an uncocked camera results in wasting some film?

I never stated that.

.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb wattsy:

I don't see what difference cocking the camera makes.

It makes sure you won't be starting with a partially cocked camera.

.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb wattsy:

You wind the film from the same position (assuming the same amount of leader is extended through the tulip) whenever you load a film. If the camera is uncocked, the shutter cocks as you start winding the film. If it's cocked already you have to fire the shutter and then wind it.

Right.

.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb wattsy:

I don't see where the wasting of film comes from. That's what I'm asking you to explain.

In order to bring unexposed film to the film window, you have to wind at least one full frame after closing the camera (maybe 7/8 of a frame would be sufficient, too ... but let's not get any deeper into that). Half a frame definitely is not sufficient. So if you start with a partially cocked shutter, you'd have to wind half a frame (or whatever the fraction may be) and then wind another full frame before you can start shooting. Later, that wasted part of a frame may prevent you from fully winding forward to the 38th frame before hitting the roll's end.

If you're happy with 37 frames then you're welcome. But if making sure the camera is fully cocked—or, more precisely, not partially cocked—yields an extra frame then I'll take it. Can't believe I have to explain this ...

Edited December 16, 2019 by 01af

[wizard]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb 01af:

So if you start with a partially cocked shutter, you'd have to wind half a frame (or whatever the fraction may be) and then wind another full frame before you can start shooting. Later, that wasted part of a frame may prevent you from fully winding forward to the 38th frame before hitting the roll's end.

I understand what you are saying, but I have loaded lots of films exactly like that, and I usually get 38 exposures from one roll, no problem. Film length may vary though.

[Topsy]

My first film M was an M2 which you have to faff around aligning the sprocket holes so I continued with this faff with my M6 and now my MP, having read this thread and watched the couple of YouTube videos I realise how simple loading the M6 and MP should be just drop the film in ensuring the leader goes into the tulip shut the back fit the base-plate and away you go. Refreshingly simple, thanks to the OP for raising it and I I'm glad I found the thread. 👍

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[wattsy]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

f you're happy with 37 frames then you're welcome. But if making sure the camera is fully cocked—or, more precisely, not partially cocked—yields an extra frame then I'll take it. Can't believe I have to explain this ...

Ok, I understand your point but I'm not convinced there's enough 'extra' potential film available (at least not with Portra 400 – the film I pretty much only use) for the partial wind to make the difference between getting or not getting an 'extra' frame. I always get 38 complete frames and usually one partial frame (which usually varies from about half a frame to about 9/10). I don't think I've ever achieved 39 frames so the 'waste' of film lost with a partial initial wind is only making the difference between getting, say 1/4 and 3/4 of the 39th frame, rather than part of frame and a whole frame.

Edited December 16, 2019 by wattsy